Accessibility and penetrability into IADS is called cruise missile i.g tomahawk mate (with reaper over head for intelligence gathering).
Beside Israel has been making quite a few daring bombing into neighbouring countries with IADS without too much problems, and with so called “legacy” aircrafts…
The RAF is hardly in the position to be spending a lot of money on upgrades right now, with all of the cuts going on.
So how can they afford the F35 ? Do they really need the F35 ? Will DE be relevant against Irak/Aghanistan type of wars any time soon ?
Better still, will the UK get the plane with the same capabilities the US will, or a degraded one ?
How to keep upgrading two completly different a/c ? I read that even the US is asking the same question with the F22 and F35 and are asking LM to develop more commonalities between the two a/c particularly in the weapon system area.
Will the F35 be relevant as a limited AtG platform, and is a dedicated long range bomber not more usefull in that role ?
Why can’t the USAF keep the F22 for air supremacy, then upgraded B2 or new platforms if needed, along with UCAVs against air defense system and upgraded F16 for low end use for asymetric warfare ?
Then the USN could think about something far more appropriate (with twin engines to start with) + UCAVs, and the Marines could use UCAVs only or go to hell ?
Apart from the US and UK the other parteners are not even sure to get a plane with limited stealth…
@ bring_it_on : Buying more upgraded F15, F18, F16 while waiting for a more mature replacement is possible and is more that technicaly enough to face any actual threat.
Some interesting numbers about the F35’s cost (from a declassified US paper):
As of febuary 2011 cost per unit :
F35A : US$123M
F35B : US$150M
F35C : US$139.5M
(average cost excluding development cost)
Weapons system unit cost is US$183.5M (as of 2011)…
So I really hope it knows how to make coffe ;). More seriously I think I’m going to wait until they introduce it and start using it for my final opinion…
http://www.saffm.hq.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-110211-038.pdf
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/awx/2011/03/10/awx_03_10_2011_p0-295042.xml&headline=Canada%20Expects%20Much%20Higher%20JSF%20Unit%20Costs
http://pogoblog.typepad.com/pogo/2011/02/jsf-likely-far-more-expensive-than-aircraft-theyre-replacing.html
F-16A/B = $14.6 million
F-16C/D = $18.8 million
F-16E/F = $26.9 million
No upgrades are ever cheap…
I agree with that but i must add that the people who decide all this arent the smartest in the world and ALL work towards an agenda. So if the Govt. decides in principal that the JSF is too much dead weight to carry on , or they dont need a 5th gen fighter then they will use all sorts of excuses and show all sort of glorified alternatives. Remember when the Congress capped the F/A-22 they said that the USAF can only spend 80 billion on it , once the USAF found ways to save money they didnt allow the USAF to buy more fighters (numerically) within the 80 billion budget and Capped the NUMBER of fighters that were to be procured…Then they put a stop to production (initiated efforts to end production) siting that the JSF was equally good for most US threats and the USAF didnt need more Raptors… The congress is fully capable with a straight face of Now canning even the F-35. It is highly unlikely however congress is known to do absurd things..
With the Indo-Russian T50, Chinese J-20, Indian FGFA (which by the way declined having any interest for the F35), I doubt the US will cancel the F35. They have to make it work no matter the cost or risk losing their pride in the face of the world. You will reither hear people speaking about threat coming from even under their bed, and the fact that the F35 is necessary in order to protect the american way of life, that it’s a matter of national security and blablabla….
A shame since only the threat of cancelling the program could motivate LM to actually do its job.
When the navy threatened to cancel production of new submarine because the sea wold were to expensive, the industrials went beyong themselve and proposed a very good product for half the price…
Aside from that, they’re completely outclassed in avionics/sensor fusion, RCS/survivability, weapon flexibility…
Sure I think the pilot just has to think very hard and make his target disappear…
It’s the entire MoD procurement methods that are flawed.
Pasha denied that there is, or ever has been, any formal agreement between Pakistan’s military and the US allowing the CIA to carry out Predator drone strikes in Pakistan. However, he is said to have conceded that most of the strikes are launched from a CIA-controlled Pakistani air base. Under questioning, he also said that Pakistan’s US-supplied F-16 jets could shoot down the drones.
Look to me like the kill switch is more political right now…
Like the Rafale and Typhoon the F-35 will be produced in smaller numbers by that. Either the US-forces will half their inventory of such a fighter like the Europeans or for some missions other air-assets have to be used.
a total target reduced from 294 to 286 units (reduced target of 234 to 228 for Army and air target of 60, reduced to 58 for the navy).
For the rafale the reduction isnt that bad. (At least from data available in 2008)
The reduction been done in order to finance the AESA radar If I remember well.
I don’t know what it’s worth but still…
Especially because the Su-30 can not be called a “discreet” aircraft, in contrast to the much more inconspicuous Rafale. We are talking about a complex system, whose main elements are quite detection and concealment. From this point of view, even the Mirage 2000C RDI and its radar with the NTCR function does not hit the face in the dirt. One cannot fail to speak also about the Spectra system of protection and warning established on Rafale, which aims to identify threats to 360 ° around the plane in active or passive mode. It also suppresses the waves around the plane, which hampers its location even with the aid of the most powerful radar.
From A&C Garuda IV: Su-30MKI and F-16D in the French sky
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?137433-Rafale-News&p=5052501&viewfull=1#post5052501
Since such a technology would be considered “strategic” and part of the nuclear deterrence “credibility” I don’t know if it could be offer for export deals
It obviously raises questions whether it would be more prudent to simply buy new fighters rather than upgrade older ones at such a huge cost. IAF, however, argues the “retrofitted” Mirages — with new avionics, radars, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites, weapon delivery and precision-targeting systems — would remain “top-notch fighters” for almost two decades more.
Gosh I like the IAF…
If you claim that the SPECTRA can help with analyzing it’s own radar reflections, then you would have to say the same about the EF’s DASS and the F-35’s RwR, or any other fighter that has a RwR.
In either case, it’s moot because there is not evidence of this ability.
EF’s DASS AFAIK act as a normal RWR on the EM spectrum. Listen, analyse for any reconnaissable pattern by comparing with a stored database then decide whether to warn the pilot that he/she’s being targeted. However depending of the degree of sensor fuse it’s possible to think that the a/c computer “fuse” any receiving waves with the ones received from the radar.
The same can be said of the Rafale and any other a/c with sensors fuse.
Since RWR are based on broad band receiver (AESA for SPECTRA), it’s logical to conclude that they can “listen” and “analyse” their own emissions, and sensor-fuse them with the radar the same way it would “detect” a other radar active typhoon or rafale coming in opposing direction.
Instead of that, the expectations will be shifted accordingly.
It happened twice with the cost, it can/will also happen with tech specs.
http://ericpalmer.wordpress.com/2007/12/02/history-they-dont-want-you-to-know/
“The airplane meets all its key performance parameters.” This is true. In 1998 — as it became clear that the Super Hornet was slower, and less agile at transonic speeds than the C/D — the Navy issued an “administrative clarification” which declared that speed, acceleration and sustained turn rate were not, and had never been, Key Performance Parameters (KPP) for the Super Hornet. Apparently, some misguided people thought that those were important attributes for a fighter.-
From Bill Sweetman.
just one remark:
more than once in this very thread, as well as in others, people talk about that “big reflector” that a vertical tail is..
it’s been pointed out in this very thread (that’s why I’d like to remind it) that the vertical fin or the rafale is made of EM-transparent materials.. which mans, as far as I understand “transparent”, that radar waves don’t bounce on it but simply go through…
IFAIK the tail is made of composite materials which absorb part of the radar waves. I’ve never seen it been EM’s transparent…
In electromagnetics and antenna theory, antenna aperture or effective area is a measure of how effective an antenna is at receiving the power of radio waves. The aperture is defined as the area, oriented perpendicular to the direction of an incoming radio wave, which intercepts the same amount of power from that wave as would be produced by the antenna receiving it.
So the power output of an antenna in watts is equal to the power density of the radio waves in watts per square metre, multiplied by its aperture in square metres. The larger an antenna’s aperture is, the more power it can collect from a given field of radio waves. To actually obtain the predicted power available Po using an antenna with an effective area Aeff the incoming wave must match the polarization of the antenna, and the load (receiver) must be impedance matched to the antenna’s feedpoint impedance.
In general, the aperture of an antenna is not directly related to its physical size.
i.e electronically steered antenna ESA
However some types of antennas, for example parabolic dishes and horns, have a physical aperture (opening) which collects the radio waves.
i.g mechanically steered antenna (MSA?)…
In these aperture antennas, the effective aperture Aeff is always less than the area of the physical aperture Aphys of the antenna.
Which mean in a mechanically steered antenna, the “physical” aperture (size) is critical since it’s going to affect the effective aperture (the real capability of the radar). I really don’t know how to put it any other way.
The directivity of an antenna, its ability to direct radio waves in one direction or receive from a single direction, is measured by a parameter called its gain,
So antennas with large effective apertures are high gain antennas, which have small angular beam widths. Most of their power is radiated in a narrow beam in one direction, and little in other directions. As receiving antennas, they are most sensitive to radio waves coming from one direction, and are much less sensitive to waves coming from other directions. Although these terms can be used as a function of direction, when no direction is specified, the gain and aperture are understood to refer to the antenna’s axis of maximum gain, or boresight.
Which is why ESA are better than “MSA”, and AESA are better than PESA because AESA have a better ability to manipulate beam widths than PESA, with each T/R modules been independant and more energy’s effective.
For antennas which are not defined by a physical area, such as monopoles and dipoles consisting of thin rod conductors(i.g AESA radar), the aperture bears no obvious relation to the size or area of the antenna. An alternate measure of antenna gain that has a greater relationship to the physical structure of such antennas is effective length leff measured in metres, which is defined for a receiving antenna as:
l_{eff} = V_0 / E_s ,
where
V0 is the open circuit voltage appearing across the antenna’s terminals
Es is the electric field strength of the radio signal, in volts per metre, at the antenna.The longer the effective length the more voltage and therefore the more power the antenna will receive. Note, however, that an antenna’s gain or Aeff increases according to the square of leff, and that this proportionality also involves the antenna’s radiation resistance. Therefore this measure is of more theoretical than practical value and is not, by itself, a useful figure of merit relating to an antenna’s directivity.
So again, if you compare a land based AESA radar with a a/c AESA radar, of course the bigger will win, but when comparing the size of a/c noses, you can’t say that one has a better radar because that one has a bigger nose. Period.
And unless you are comparing fighters against AWACs platforms, you cannot say that one has a clear advantage above the other because even if it has a slightly bigger nose it wont be that much “bigger” to make such a difference.
Then because Gallium Arsenide Microwave Monolithic Integrated Circuit (GaAs MMIC) effectiveness tend to degrade with heat, too many modules working at full capacity (so the hugest possible amount of energy) without a robust (so bulky) cooling system is only going to degrade your radar making it more difficult to detect and track over long distances (losing sensibility).
So again, with AESA technology, energy (for distances) and angles is what matter the most along with sotfware of course not size.
Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aperture_%28antenna%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directivity
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/an-apg-aesa.htm
http://www.ausairpower.net/aesa-intro.html