MildaveWhen the gulf states are going to buy more chinese stuff than US, European, or Russian, when China will have at least 1 base in the gulf protecting its fuel supply, when China will have a plane competing with western or russian in Brazil or other country, we shall see.
I agree with the rest of the crowd that China is becoming a giant that is going to be able to lead in meany area, compete and even rival the US in the future, but that day is simply not today.
MildaveSo detailed that there is not even a single “US made” item mentioned… Has been covered before anyway.:rolleyes:
Just look for any item with the label “BAE” on it… if you can’t find it… well then put on some glasses. Rafale would have been in the same situation concerning its radar had the Iraq war not restricted US tech to France.
MildaveSome people are unable of nuances.
Has the Chinese been building high tech fighter jet for more than 60 years accumulating experience, industrial capabilities etc ? No.
US, Russia, France, UK are the only one to have been building jets from A to Z for decades. China is pretty new to the game and has already been seen copying Russian’s jet on large scale.
So maybe with the J20 they have acquired enough skills building aircrafts to have been able to implement their own ideas, but still, because they learnt how to make a plane from the russian, and because their industry is still in the process of cacthing up with Russia and the West they aren’t in a position to inove yet.
20 years from now if they keep the same investment then maybe.
Example they have introduced the J-11 around 1995 which no matter what you say is a reverse engineered Su 27 with some minors modifications with worse avionics than the Russian’s. The J10 which could have the strongest claim as totally indigenious fighter as no more credibility. Between Israeli and Russian nobody knows who was the most involved…
There is no shame in learning. But I might laugh out loud if you tell me that the very first time China might make a fighter on its own with an industry still lagging at least 10 years behind even Russia in some area they are going to blast the F22 out of the sky !
Why do you think Russia is so angry and is menacing to stop supplying quite a few things to China starting with engines for its JF 17 ?
MildaveIn order to create a response you need to study what the other has done, and then create your design. Again we are not saying it’s a simple copy and paste. But it’s surelly going to inspire itself strongly from… Unless you are a martian and never saw what was happening on earth.
Why do you think the F22 as thrust-vectoring engine nozzles ?
Do you think the US has one of the largest spying network in history just for the fun ?
MildaveReally, I don’t think so.. Then Flanker can also be F-15. F-15 can also be Mig-25. :rolleyes:
We do know there was a lot of espionage going on at that time and one aircraft was developed to counter the other. There is the story of a soviet pilot who defected and landed on a US base. I don’t remember which plane he was flying though.
Mildave1 SU30MKI = a least 4 MIG 21, so why should they try to replace the twenties number for number ? What would be the point to spend more to make a aircraft multi role ?
MildaveWhat you are saying is that LM and Boeing are losing market’s share in the US because there are not as many F22 as there are F15 and not as many F35 as there are F16…
India can replace all the MIG twenties with SU-30MKI and PAK-FA. India can afford PAK-FA + LCA + MMRCA + AMCA beacause India has more money to spend.
Because India has more money to spend there are more share to its defense market than previously. And because India can spend more money, India has become “interesting” for western companies that can sell higher priced product.
MildaveI was wondering how long it would be before the Russian fanboys start to try and take credit for the J20. :rolleyes:
I also guess that all the reported hacks of the JSF program traced back to China was just for fun.
MildaveTo say that China build a plane that’s not “strongly” inspired by Russia is like saying you do not share the same DNA that your parents.
MildaveThe thing is that INTEGRATED Air defence systems will proliferate considerably in the comming decades , the Cost to develop new ones is far less then the cost to develop a LO strike assett. The F-35 isnt really a SILVER BULLET to Supress Air defences , Infact it will most likely be the B-2 Bomber (the NGB ) and the F-22 which will form the Front Line of the USAF’s Air defence destruction Missions , however in an integrated Air defence environ the ABILITY TO PENETRATE the Defence system of the F-35A 20 years from now will probably be similar to what the SH has now , So to PRESERVE ACCESS and PENETRABILITY we need the LO and VLO Platforms … I agree however that we could have done with about a 100 more F-22’s , specially considering that the early block versions WONT be upgraded ever , but that is POLITICAL and there is nothing we can do about it .
A bit harsh , Compare the F-35 cost , to that of the F-22 when it was Similarly Mature as a program , i guess only then would it be fair??
The USAF and USN wanted to replace THOUSANDS of F-16’s and F-18
over DECADES , the USAF wanted a SINGLE engined Fighter which is STRIKE oriented , LO and Offers Economics when it comes to Opertation . The F-22 offered neither of those things. Nor could it do STOVL which the USMC wanted. All 3 requirments from the 3 services were CLUBBED into one requirment and one Program was Launched instead of Several potentially fatal programs.
I see your point. However supression of air defences is going to be Jamming/UCAV/Stand off weapons/Stealth cruise missile. Nobody will be foolish enough to risk a poor 187 F22s for the job. These day we hear more and more reports about UAV been shot down and even if I know you cannot really compare an F22 flying 10thousand feets and a UAV it’s a fair assertion to say that the air defense of tomorrow might be even quicker to respond against VLO threats than against normal aircraft. Most wars are won using ruse are they not ?
Anyway, I guess we need to wait to see where the F35 is really going.
It also depend upon the motivation of the US to remain above everyone else. 187 F22s is as much or more than many european countries will have of operational 4.5 fighters.
MildaveAbout Syria distance is no issue and by that no need of external support. Contrary to Iran Syria never claimed some atomic intentions and it would have taken a very long time to convince the others about the real Syrian intentions about that. Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states are lobbying the US very hard about the Iranians. They are the ones looking for an Israeli strike option too up to the point of a night-time refuelling landing.
That Meir Dagan sees the international political solution as the best option for Israel can not surprise serious people.;)
Which is why I said if they could “effectively”;) bomb Iran they would have already done so.
MildaveRealize, though, that the F-35 is more expensive both to purchase and to operate than the F-16, Harrier, or F/A-18A-D. This will necessarily have an impact on fleet sizes.
The thing you have to look at is whether it’s really worth it to have every single fast jet in your fleet carry around the weight and expense of first-day-of-war stealth. I agree that the USN needed a manned VLO airframe; the saner thing to do would have been to upgrade the F-22 for the AF and buy it in larger numbers, develop a stealthy carrier-based strike fighter for the Navy, and continue procuring updated 4th gen types for the bulk of USN, USMC, and USAF squadrons. What we have instead is a mess.
I completely agree. Once you’ve gained air superiority what good is it to operate costly VLO aircraft to go and bomb demoralized ground troops ?
Beside the F35 program is a joke as far as money saving is concerned.
Typhoon, Rafale, Flankers were build around the same time than the F22 and their avionics have been upgraded.
So given that the F22 was already in advance on its time I dont see why it would be too costly to upgraded it than to lauch an all new fighter program.
Today the airforce is looking for money to finish the F35 and then they have to look for more to keep both planes up to date, each with completely different systems, codes and such. They should have lauch a program to update the F22 electronics and then put an variant inside the F35.
MildaveT 50 or not Russians are going to lose Market share. MRCA and LCA are replacing Russian platforms primarily. MIG 21s,23s,27s, and eventually upgraded 29s.
T 50 is going to replace MKIs when its full complement enters service.
MKI’s + PAK-FA prices more than equal all the Mig twenties…
India is spending more than before so it is only logical that they look around. Since India is trying to produce most thing itself, the MMRCA should be the last time a foreigh aircraft is bought already developed abroad.
MildaveWe could spend an eternity discussing both planes, like people like to discuss the importance of the size of their “i”, that would not make any differences. I’m sure a Typhoon pilot would never want to meet a Rafale in actual combat and vice versa.
What matter is that both programs have reached today some maturity, and when cost/performance/maintenance are studied, it becomes clear that one program was better managed than the other.
Now it’s possible that because the Typhoon is operational in Saudi Arabia, the need to test its overall performances in hot and dusty climate is no longer a need. Yet with 24 aircrafts delivered so far (from planes destined to the RAF) and still very limited A2G capability, this is shamefull for a program that claimed to be strong of ~707 aircrafts commended so far.
Beside here is more detailed article about the dependance of the Typhoon toward US technologies (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/23/us_gove_saudi_eurofighter_sale/).
The Mig 35 should have little chance since that would mean making the entire India airforce dependant on Russia good will, and would not be coherent with India desire to diversify suppliers. Beside there are no tech Mig is ready to share that France’s Rafale isn’t willing to share as well.
Now I would be curious to know what a Gripen should offer that a upgraded Mirage 2000 wont today (with facilities already in place etc), and LCA tomorrow.
That’s again leave SH, and Rafale. The choice of the GE as an alternative engine supplier until the Kaveri is ready is of no consequence given the size of both program. It would be like saying that SH, F15, F16, F22, F35 all had to be powered by the same engine. Beside since Secma is helping India with the Kaveri (which is supposed to be longer term), and already implemented for the maintenance of the Mirage 2000’s engine one can say that the M88 has also good prospect.
Last but not least, the upgrade of the Mirage 2000 is going to see India buy a lot of systems and weapon systems that are compatible with the Rafale, starting with Mica.
MildaveDespite having built the F22, LM has started from scratch with the F35. The two planes have nothing in common, airframe or the electronics. These make for two very costly programs. A cheaper degraded variant of the F22 would have make more sense, but why make it cheap of you can make it expensive ?
It’s better for LM or Boeing to lobby the US government to lauch a new fighter program.
Beside the commitment of Russia and India toward the PAK-FA is respectively ~200 and ~250. By the time the fighter is operational and prices higher than expected I would not be surprised if Russia and India fielded far less.
Russia willingness to cooperate with the US, over the missile shield for example and on other subjects, coupled with India reliance on western technology make them very unlikely to pose a threat.
Only China with many unresolved conflicts about its borders has shown the willingness to be aggressive towards US, Japan, Europe etc… But whatever the real capabilities of the J-20, I’m sure ~186 F22 are more than enough to take care of it. What good are 500 F22’s is China can shoot down US military satellites and other assets ?
Putting 1/4 of the cost of the F35 program into making the F22 cheaper, more reliable and more capable would have in my opinion make the US a much better deal. But would LM have made any real profits out of it ?
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