VnomadTheir european part is hardly 23.000 sq km, please name European countries having less than that. Unless you count in Liechtenstein or Andorra, that is.
Liechtenstein, Andorra are European aren’t they?
I think the times of Greek purchases of US hardware are effectively over. And really, how much bigger is say.. Belgium? Not to mention, the population living west of the Bosphorus, is greater than the population of most Scandinavian countries.
Some could be getting 2nd hand Typhoons T1. Too bad their operating cost is quite high.
Maybe, but its more likely they’ll do without. Or possibly sign up for a multi-purpose trainer (possibly through the T-X program).
That was the intention but it won’t. Way too costly and way too weak in A-A.
Half a dozen European AFs are already onboard, more than have signed up for the Eurofighter. As for A-A weak compared to whom? Not the Eurocanards and certainly not its predecessors in the F-15 and F-16.
Vnomad1) Turkey is in Asia. Arguably an Euroasian country, the capital is in Asia and the European part takes less than 3%.
2) Nowhere does the article say that Poland is going for the F-35. All it says is that they’re gonna replace Fitters and Fulcrums from 2021 on.
3) Nowhere does the article say that Finland is going for the F-35. All it says is that their minister would like to.
4) So the Greeks are getting EU aid and then transfer it over to LM to get F-35s? Dream on..
5) You only forgot Germany. Austria. Bulgaria. Switzerland. Romania. Portugal. Slovenia. Slovakia. Croatia. Serbia. and the rest of the Balkans.
1) Their European part is still larger than many European states. They use the Roman alphabet, most of their trade is with other European states and they’re a NATO member.
2) What it says is that the Poles intend to replace them with a fifth gen aircraft. Unless they invite Sukhoi and/or Shenyang to the party, it augurs well for the F-35.
3) On the other hand, why did he make a seemingly unnecessary public statement? At the very least it shows which way the wind is blowing in Finland.
4) The F-35 will remain in production for at least two decades, comfortably outlasting the Greek economic crisis. And when they do buy, they’ll buy F-35s.
5) How many of them are looking to buy new fighter aircraft? And which ones are likely to go in for Eurofighters or Rafales?
Let us see the numbers. Norway 52, Netherlands 37, UK 138 (firmly ordered 48), Italy 90 (with Renzi cabinet planing further cuts, expect ~65), we are somewhere around ~290 aircraft depending on what numbers will finally get inked. Finland undecided, Poland undecided, Denmark undecided.
Europe will still be home to far more F-35As than it will Rafales and Gripens. Also, I think the Swedes would be willing to testify that the Danish have no intention of buying anything but the F-35 (they’ll probably say the same about Canada as well BTW). Add in Turkish orders and it’ll comfortably outstrip operational Eurofighters.
Still a long way to get there. Sunshine.
Only game in town, hoss. The Gripen line will squeeze out the odd export order here and there (and it’ll have to fight the still cheaper FA-50, Tejas, JF-17 for those), but it’ll still remain a marginal player. The other two Eurocanards have stopped making a serious effort in Europe, but they can at least count themselves fortunate in that their Middle Eastern clients have limited high-end options for now. Either way, the F-35 will still be to the next two decades what the F-16 was to the last two.
Vnomadyou underestimate the difficulty of intercepting any a/c at transonic speed and already at 30k+ ft,
while you yourself start at zero speed & zero altitude.
in short, you are in la-la land
Did you even bother to see the context in which the reference was made? The issue was doing a show-the-flag in a scenario where nothing more potent or faster than the Bear was ever fielded and combat capability was a complete non-requirement. Field thrice and many, forward deploy them, and use ‘wall’ formations. So what if you’re not there ‘on time’?
The whole Scorpion thing was a piece of sarcasm, but you want to make a whole debate out of it, and then claim I’m in ‘la-la land’. You go right ahead.
Vnomadbefore fuel fraction & sustained speed was clear, Gripen was deemed insufficient in interceptor role according to Swiss,
how do you propose Textron Scorpion & F-35 is going to cut it ?
The Scorpion is the lowest common denominator. If the overriding priority is to keep costs low, no possibility of air combat with the focus remaining on air policing, the Scorpion will do the job.
With regard to the F-35, all its other qualities aside, its a considerably better interceptor than the CF-18. Better speed, better fuel fraction, far longer range.
VnomadMOSTLY F35 equipped Europeans?……..seriously?….the UK will still maintain it’s fleet of EF’s…the Luftwaffe will be flying EF’s, France flying the Rafales, The Swiss will be flying their F/a 18’s, the Czechs their Gripens, the Poles their variety bag ( but NO F35’s)…Italy hasn;t finalized ANY yet and only 60 expected…over 76 EF’s with 20 more on order , 85 upgraded Tornados and 55 AMX’s…even the USA isn;t going “all in” with the F35, they are keeping their F15’s and the F22’s as well. SO NO sunshine, NO ONE is counting on the F35’s to take the “HEAT” off anyone, the only “all F35” airforces will be the Dutch ( who really don;t participate in anything) and the Norwegians ( IF they get rid of their F16’s).
Norway, Netherlands, UK, Italy, Turkey have signed on to the F-35. Denmark is all but certain to follow (Saab has dropped its bid and Dassault opted out). The Belgians will round that out to complete the F-16’s EPG quartet. Poland is planning to buy 64 F-35s and Finland’s already started laying the groundwork for a F-35 acquisition. With Turkey, having bought F-35s, the Greeks will be on board as well (as and when they can afford it). That only leaves the Czechs, Hungarians and Swedes.
– Switzerland is neutral.
– F-16s, F-4s, Tornados, AMXs etc are all due for retirement.
– Eurofighter: ∼350 in service (after T1 retirements)
– Rafale: 180 confirmed orders.
– Gripen C: 24 in service (after phasing out in Sweden).
– Gripen E: 60-70 planned.
So yeah, the F-35 is set to be the most numerous fighter type in Europe. Sunshine.
Man, believe the hype and the propaganda all you want, it;s NOT going to be near as wonderfully VLO mass encounters as you may fantasize about. Try OLDER designed and built fighters called in to take in the slack from the “big let down” the VLO numbers will provide. And really? you believe Russia is going to go to war?
I don’t have to believe anything. The RCAF plans and trains for a potential conflict against Russia which is why it wants the F-35. If that threat were to evaporate (its non-existent according to you), the Scorpion is more than sufficient for all remaining tasks.
And Canada certainly has NEVER shirked it’s part in anything
Indeed. And as much as you dislike the aircraft, you’ll find the F-35 flying in Canadian colours by the end of the decade.
VnomadImpressively clean superstructure. But how come none of the frigates pictured field any anti-sub rockets? The preceding Krivak class units were equipped with RBU-6000s IIRC. Any particular reason they’ve been omitted?
VnomadIf I choose to use a simplistic form of structure on an Internet forum, so be it. I am not exactly working on a thesis now am I? Please accept my sincere regret that my literary skills on a FORUM have fallen below the expected standards of the Forum’s Literary Police.
Everyone else on the forum manages to make the effort to punctuate their posts. That’s hundreds of posters and millions of posts.
VnomadWHY is the PAK FA thing such an issue to you…….by YOUR OWN accord a week ago or so you where saying that the Russians only plan what less than 60 of them?….
Is that a question or a statement? Because we’ve had no such conversation nor have I handed out any accords.
As for the PAK FA, its Russian order book will be in excess of 200 units. 60 aircraft plus is the preliminary order being placed by the Russian MoD.
“The Air Force will start taking delivery [of fifth-generation fighters] in 2015-16. The preliminary number is over 60,” Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin said. – RIA Novosti
_________
When pitted against Russian Su-30s and Su-35s, the F-35 will still have a far better LE ratio than the SH (despite the SH costing only 25% less to acquire). But yes with the (mostly F-35 equipped) Americans and Europeans taking the heat off Canada, you could afford to go cheaper. The Textron Scorpion is in fact perfect for tagging Russian bomber patrols.
VnomadI don’t want to bother you with my dear Rafale and pollute topic, but it is starting cooperation flights with nEUROn within months.
My question is what would be more Xth Gen : F-35 or a Gripen/Rafale/EFT couple with a ultra stealthy UCAS?
Will depend on what the FCAS will cost. An F-35 coupled to a UCAS-D derivative may still be cheaper.
VnomadI don;t think that I know better than the Canadian Military, I WAS Canadian Military….and PLEASE stop using 5th Generation to mean ONLY the F35………F35 and VLO are NOT the only factors in Gen 5 The Gripen NG IS going to be a Gen 5 plane……simply as it will be the NEWEST designed plane being built…….
Were you a pilot in the RCAF. If not, you can understand why your touting of your military service doesn’t really help your case.
SO NO, writing a NEEDS assessment for a Gen 5 aircraft DOES NOT mean ONLY the F35….ONLY , ONLY if there is a specific NEED for “stealth -VLO” is it specific to the F35..lets get that part straight…….IF Canada likewise decided to go with the ( hypothetically) the ADVANCED SH, that TOO would be a 5th Gen plane…..
Call it sixth generation if you like. Though I can’t see how the label will help in combat against the PAK FA.
The ONLY thing the F35 has going for it is that it is the NEWEST and the only STEALTH / VLO offering on the table……..
And a superb radar, EW suite, MMI, DAS and sensor fusion. Also, excellent endurance and high AoA performance. But that’s about it.
And believe me when I say YOU and any other American saying that CANADIANS don;t know what Canada needs is just asinine………and the Canadian “military” have NOT had a fair assessment of the offerings out there…because a VERY FEW Top Brass with lucrative LM jobs in their futures have basically decided what THEY want…..no testing, no competetion, no looking at what is best for Canada in long term operation, nor economically nor in industry…sure a few companies build a little for the F35……the Gripen NG has been offered to Canada with FULL Manufacture, manufacture of parts, tech transfer AND upgrades…….now that is a far better deal!…..
And here I though the lack of dual engine redundancy trotted out against the F-35, would have also applied to the Gripen E. The Brazilians are paying about $150M each for their partly indigenized Gripens. It’ll be interesting to see what a fully domesticated Gripen E costs Canada, without the low-cost advantages enjoyed by Brazil.
So , all that said…..America does NOT KNOW what Canada needs or is best for Canada
Try to spin it as a US v Canada thing all you want, the RCAF (rumored to be manned by and staffed with Canadian citizens) will be more interested in the PAK FA v Rafale/Gripen/F-35 thing.
VnomadTruncated lists – no Ouragan, Lansen, Hunter, Javelin, etc. And please, please! LIGHTNING! ‘Litening’ is an Israeli targeting pod. It’s never been the name of any aircraft, it’s not even an English word, & I have no idea why the Israelis called it that.
Yeah, that’s a very truncated list. Was wondering if I should at least include the Buccaneer, but then thought it best to stick with one representative of each generation. Should be ‘Lightening’ yes, I’ve typed Litening so many times over the course of many debates that it I guess muscle memory kicked in. 😀
VnomadWrong impression. F-15s are out, F-18s are finishing. X-32 has lost. Boeing is pretty much out of fighter business in the States. Pretty much everyone except LM is.
1. X-32 lost on its own merits, or lack thereof, not because of any arm-twisting in the US Congress.
2. The USN’s NGAD program is still alive.
3. None of this provides any evidence for your statement on Korea. The F-15E is still an American aircraft and Boeing factories are still a major source of employment in their respective regions, and it still has clout with the Congress and govt (read: F-18E/F, KC-46).
No patriots. Patriotism pretty much ends where millions of dollars start. An average Joe with Google and w/o any access to insider information can easily find three of them having a colorful bribing history with LockMart, often in deals 100x smaller than this one…
The average Park or Kim would be reluctant to smear 12 other decorated officers. Especially since, the decision to go with the F-35 over the F-15E has been made by plenty of other countries (including Israel that’s known for taking its security more seriously than most). And unless Lockheed Martin has been buying off Keypub members, its quite clear from this thread that accepting the merits of the F-35’s case is not an automatic case of corruption.
VnomadYOUR opinions and apparent belief that NOT seeing the F35 in the RCAF is the same as wanting it abolished is foolish and utter BS…….I have SERVED my Nation, I have been deployed, I have lived in the dirty so MY wants will ALWAYS be for a capable, strong Military, including the RCAF BUT, this may be hard to understand, the F35 just doesn;t fit it will never fit and despite your incesent nattering, it won;t be swayed by the Propaganda and fanboyism of an forum.
1. The anonymity bestowed by the internet is dual edged; people are free to share opinions without sacrificing their privacy but on the flip-side declarations such as yours vis a vis your military service mean nothing at all.
2. On this thread, there are thousands of posts spanning hundreds of debates by many dozens of posters. You know less about fighter aircraft than nearly all of them. Nothing wrong with that, stay a while and you’ll pick things up. Trouble is, you’ve been trying to paper over it with loud bluster and unfortunately for you, it shows.
WHY would Canada even remotely be looking at “fighting” the RuAF? is the USA planning on starting WW3? what the RCAF DOES do in regards to intercepts and ID flights is what Canada needs to do, NOT what anyone else wants them to do…
As much as you duck and dodge the point, fact still remains that with Russia out the picture, Canada’s defence challenges are no worse than Mexico’s. With Russia in the picture, the RCAF needs to be prepared for the PAK FA.
being CAPABLE of defending ones Nation is NOT the same as having a specifically designed First Strike Aircraft, remember that?…what the F35 WAS designed for?…not A2A, NOT being a “Fighter”, just a “stealthy aircraft” to get into and 1st strike some other Nation….all these “other” so called abilities it supposedly has are all add on AFTER the fact…….and does NONE of them that well.
The F-35 was intended and designed, right from inception, to be a multirole aircraft; primarily a replacement for the F-16, AV-8B and the F-18.
The GRIPEN NG is OBVIOUSLY NOT a Gen 6 plane! IT IS however, the NEXT GENERATION of the design making it however a fully Gen 5 plane…seeing as VLO DOES NOT make a Gen 5 plane but simply WHEN a plane is designed and built, there are NO Gen 6 planes anywhere in the world so your comment is pointless
1. ‘6th gen’ was a reference to Bill Sweetman’s widely discussed piece.
2. VLO is the only thing that all 5th generation aircraft have in common and no previous gen aircraft fields. Everything else, including supercruise has been around for a long time.
3. Every new clean sheet design currently in development in the world includes a LO/VLO capability. There’s more or less a consensus among AFs on its utility (incl. the RCAF), and its at odds with your opinion.
and really, there is never ANY discussion about what the Neigbours are flying, because the same bunch go on to the PAK FA / T50 thread and run them down, then go to the J21 J31 threads and run them down, the same to the Gripen NG and the Rafale and the EF….then get all upset and “offended” that people could DARE to disagree that F35 is anything short of the next coming of Christ.
I suggest you hop over to any of threads and ask your Russian or Chinese friends, which Western aircraft they believe is most survivable against the PAK FA and/or J-20/J-31, and how the rest are likely to fair.
That is NOT discussion it is blatant fanboyism and propaganda
believe what you want, bottom line the rest of the world DOES NOT OWE the USA anything.
and in the end, enjoy your F35….The RCAF, and every other Airforce that dare opt out will survive just fine without it
…. and that would be the bluster, mentioned above.
and the suggestion that the “scorpion” could even be considered is utter rubbish…..but the Rafale, the EF or the Gripen NG sure could be, even the SH, maybe even SPECIFICALLY the SH, it is certainly a far better fit, an easier transition for both aircrews AND maintenance Hell, with our current CF188’s now being ON THE JOB till 2025, Canada could even luck out and grab dozens of SH’s right from the US Navy! at bargin basement prices for a better fitting plane for the RCAF
Against a Tu-95, the Scorpion is just as effective as the Super Hornet, while remaining far cheaper. And no, the USN is not having any ‘great-SH-giveaway-bash’, now or in 2025. If any aircraft coming up for retirement, its because they deserve to be retired (flogging a naval airframe past its shelf-life is a different prospect from a land based fighter). All the same if you’re open to second hand kit, you’re better off making a play for the USAF’s F-15Cs, potentially supplemented by used F-15Es down the line.
VnomadBecause Lockmart was bailed out by bank of america under the condition that the US government would be held responsible should it fail to meet its obligations.
Nic
Huh? Lockheed Martin bailout?
VnomadHave you followed the last two decades of fighter business, at all? Who is running the show in the US as we speak?
Who is running the show? Boeing or Lockheed Martin? I was under the impression that they’re both pretty influential.
I am sure they have been losing sleep over it for years. Especially those who have already been convicted of corruption with Lockheed years back with programs like F-16 or C-130.
All fifteen former chiefs are convicts or unconvicted criminals? That’s nearly everybody who’s headed the ROKAF in the last several decades. No patriots at all among the whole group of four star generals? Or within the govt that was the ultimately responsible for passing over one US aircraft for another?
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