VnomadVnomad, it depends about what you call for a “permissive environment” IMHO something of a loan word that have not any precise significance.
Just for an example, did you consider Kosovo in 1999, where both our and Us dedicated Cas assets worked together with great reciprocal satisfaction, such as that?
By permissive environment I mean one where there’s no significant threat from ground defences.
If we consider Kosovo, that’s an example of lets say a semi-permissive environment. Hard deck for the A-10 was 15,000 ft, later reduced to 10,000 ft. And from that altitude, a PGM equipped turboprop could do the job just as well. Doesn’t have to lug around all that armour, so much cheaper to operate too.
VnomadThere is a reason the Mi-28 looks so bulky, it is rated to take quite a beating- while Apache’s glass “house” is completely unarmored.
Yeah that’s a lot of glass on the Apache. On other hand, you’d need a very lucky shot to nail the pilot/gunner. I can only find one reference to such an event on the net (even though the aircraft has seen a lot of action in the last 15 years).
I was actually hoping there was some specific info available on the armour composition of the underside of the cockpit (which would soak up most of the small arms fire) and that over the power-pack.
Vnomad“Another IAF source suggests that the Apache also had superior armor protection”
Total nonsense.
Could you elaborate please. (I don’t have much idea about the armour aspect, though that point did seem forced to me.)
VnomadFrom the link you provided a few posts above:
“Once the Rafale deal is concluded, the MoD and IAF is likely to concentrate on drawing up another plan to acquire another batch of fighter jets manufactured under the Make in India programme. This tender, whenever finalised, will allow other major aviation majors worldwide to compete in the Indian market for fighter jets.”
That’s the main question – whether this parallel program was a serious idea (this is based only on verbal statement’s from MoD reps) or more of a ‘possibility’? Lets see.
If this next plan goes through, dassault will also apply and be in pole position to win that too. First win $9 billion for 36 and then double dip again for the remaining. ( keep in mind original mmrca was 12billion for 126. )
Actually the thing to keep in mind, is that the MMRCA got cancelled primarily on budgetary grounds. Facts don’t appear to have changed in that respect.
VnomadI wonder what these ’20 counts’ were?
I believe high altitude performance would have been a key criteria; as per public sources the AH-64D’s service ceiling is about 600-800 m higher than the Mi-28. You could also extrapolate that to performance in hot desert conditions (rarified air), albeit to a lesser extent.
As for the other points, according to a AWST report (published before the results were announced) –
Boeing AH-64D Seen Winning Indian Air Force Deal
NEW DELHI — The Indian government is signaling that Boeing soon will be awarded a contract for 22 AH-64D Apache Longbow Block IIIs for the Indian air force (IAF).
The U.S. Army rotorcraft, which is said to have outperformed the rival Russian Mi-28N Night Hunter in tests, was strongly recommended by the IAF earlier this year as its choice following trials in 2010.
Defense ministry sources reveal that differences in performance between the two helicopters was so great that the IAF’s case was difficult to question. The final contract, a direct commercial sale, could be worth $1.5 billion.
An IAF trial team member, who asked not to be named, says, “The Apache scored consistently over Mi-28 in several key operational criteria. Broadly, these fell under the categories of electronic warfare, survivability, situational awareness in the cockpit, night-fighting capabilities, sensor efficacy and weapons. The helicopter was also found to be far more maneuverable. We worked directly with Boeing and the U.S. Army to test this helicopter.”
Another IAF source suggests that the Apache also had superior armor protection and performed well in both desert and high-altitude conditions.
Boeing said it would not comment on the outcome of the competition since nothing was known officially yet. A Rosoboronexport official says he had read local Russian media reports about the Mi-28N losing out in the contest, but was unaware of why. The Russian helicopter had proven itself in field trials, he declared, but would not say more.
VnomadJust like Arjun won over T-90…we know how it ended up peing vice versa.
I doubt you do.
The decision was without doubt political aswell some specifications, however it can not lose in 20 counts if those 20 counts are not tailored in favor of one. By specifications the Havoc outmatches Apaches in lot of fields which are a necessity and requirement for attack helicopter or any combat involved aircraft, such as speed, weapon range, accuracy, survivability, logistical burden and so on.
Your opinion. You’re welcome to it.
Mi-26 lost to an inferior CH-47 is just one of the points.
The IAF, with a quarter century of operational data from Mi-26 ops to draw upon, judged a 12 ton lift capacity to be adequate for its tasks. And since CH-47E’s life-cycle cost was predictably lower, it was the obvious choice. From what I understand, the IAF’s existing Mi-26s (aside from suffering chronic serviceability problems) are simply too expensive to employ on a routine basis. They basically serve in a niche role, unlike the Chinook which in widespread service as an everyday workhorse.
The tenders all in india have shown political influence. There is never a tender without political decision.
And yet the IAF swears by the Mi-17, who’s numbers just continue to grow.
VnomadOoops….Here comes another Final Stage…..:applause:
😀
Rafale deal inches along with tough talk on pricing
Talks on pricing had reached a critical phase, say official sources.
Contrary to speculation that India and France have reached an agreement for the direct purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets, official sources said talks on pricing had reached a critical phase and were expected to be completed in a few months.
Sources said the differences over pricing had narrowed down considerably, and the talks were in the final phase.
While the French offer was about €11 billion, India said it would not go beyond €8 billion. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has clarified on various occasions that there will be no compromise on the price.
A senior diplomat refused to give a timeline for concluding the deal but expressed the hope that it would be done by June.
After some hard negotiations, the differences seem to have narrowed down considerably, with the French climbing down on their offer. The conclusion of the inter-governmental agreement will pave the way for signing of the final contract.
In January this year, both sides signed a Memorandum of Understanding for the purchase during the visit of French President Francois Hollande to India.
The development comes one year after the surprise announcement by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in Paris on the direct purchase of 36 fighter jets under a government-to-government agreement.
However, the talks to conclude the deal were gridlocked over offset requirements, customisations as sought by the Indian Air Force (IAF) and pricing.
VnomadSo in the next round, IAF will need to pick either dassault or another manufacturer. Since dassault is already in IAF with rafale, it would be at an enormous advantage. And will thus be able to squeeze IAF balls even harder. Very strange negotiating tactics by India.
How do you know for sure that there will be a ‘next round’? (Aside from the fixed-price follow-on options within the current contract.)
Only good thing out of this is that this saga can be put to a rest. And thank heavens for that!
Not if there’s a next round right?
VnomadThat may have been one among the reasons for the Apache’s selection. Wouldn’t have been a mandatory requirement though, else they wouldn’t have bothered to ship the Mi-28N all the way to India for field evaluations.
A source at the Defense Ministry of India said that such actions were not political. The decision was made on the base of the specifications of the aircraft. “The Mi-28H did not meet the requirements of the tender on 20 counts, unlike the Apache helicopter, which showed best results, Indian officials said.
http://www.pravdareport.com/russia/economics/26-10-2011/119442-india_russia-0/
VnomadSo, almost when enemy have not meaningful air defenses guns and rocket are still considered also actually legitimate and convenient choices.
Well, it means almost all the 90% of post Cold war era conflicts.
Sure in a permissive environment, the A-10 does perfectly well. I think everyone accepts. Thing is the Scorpion and Super Tucano are quite acceptable in that role as well.
VnomadLet’s be realistic, you can’t plan to fly both the PakFa and the F35…
Why not?
VnomadFor 36 airframes that works out at around 220 million Euros per airframe? Wouldn’t it be cheaper to buy F-35s – how much did the USAF pay for its F-22s?
The aircraft would probably cost about the same or marginally higher (cost is still dropping). The real savings would have been in the weapons package which niche European manufacturers don’t have the scales to match.
But nobody told Modi about the F-35 when he was visiting Paris, so…
VnomadBecause that’s how they do it in India.
It is curious isn’t it – within days of the Indian defence minister sitting down with LM & Boeing, middle ground on the Rafale is found. Middle ground that appears to track quite closely to the MoD’s demands. Are we really sure there’s a second type planned?
“I am a tough negotiator. Let me save money for the nation … I think a good buyer does not put his weakness in front. He always keeps his cards close to his chest. Please don’t ask me to disclose my cards in national interest.” – Manohar Parrikar on Rafale deal
VnomadThis one was however posted just a month ago, so it seems that they still doesn’t found gun obsolete at all.
Question is, where the ISIS air defence units?
VnomadSqueeze a better price out of Dassault?
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