VnomadAfter a spate of ‘IAF drilled the crap out the RAF at Indradhanush’ reports, the IAF puts out this statement.
VnomadUK National Audit Office Publishes Report Stating that The Typhoon Is Worse Value For Money
http://www.nao.org.uk/report/management-of-the-typhoon-project/
The NAO report is dated 2010-11. Contains nothing surprising.
“The Typhoon is currently performing important operational tasks but the full multi-role capability won’t be available for a number of years. Until this happens the MOD will not have secured value for money from its over £20 billion investment in Typhoon. MOD has put some of the building blocks in place to enable this to happen. But difficult and deep-rooted problems remain to be overcome.
The Typhoon fighter aircraft is already fulfilling some key defence tasks but it is unlikely to reach its full potential as a multi-role aircraft until 2018, according to a National Audit Office report to Parliament. Getting full value for money from the significant investment in the project will depend on the MOD’s successfully progressing the delivery of multi-role capability so that the aircraft can be deployed when required and affordably.
VnomadI seriously doubt russians can match west when it comes to aircraft technology. This disparity has only increased given the lost decade and a half when there was zero R&D in Russia.
Yet the proportion of Russian gear in the Pakistani inventory seems to have grown substantially over the last decade – Mi-17, Il-78, RD-33 and now I hear they’re to be joined by the Mi-35. Curiouser and curiouser.
VnomadIs there any modern fighter the Typhoon HASN’T been beaten by?
F-22 check
F-16 check
Su-30 check
Rafale check
F-18E
F-35
F-15Lets keep a tally, this may come in handy
Replace ‘Typhoon’ with any other fighter, result will remain the same. Plenty of fighters have gotten ‘kills’ on plenty of others. The results of both BVR and WVR combat depends primarily on the RoEs, with every aircraft excelling in its own specific particular role/flight regime. [Sole exception might be the F-22, where the downside is cost, maintainability and the lack of an HMD & IRST.]
VnomadAuditor Slams Navy’s Selection Of R-77 Missile
“A critical armament for the MiG 29K aircraft is a BVR missile, which augments the ‘Beyond Visual Range’ capability of the aircraft. The [R-77], one such BVR missile was acquired by the Indian Air Force between 1999 and 2002. However, the serviceability status of the missile, in evidence prior to the Navy contract of March 2006, has been poor as brought out in paragraph No. 3.2 of the Report of the C&AG of India, No. CA 18 of 2008-09. High rate of unserviceability was noticed by IAF since 1999 from the first lot of missiles received. By November 2005, IAF decided against refurbishing the missiles “X” after life expiry and started considering a suitable replacement for future procurements. Nonetheless, Indian Navy concluded the contract in March 2006 for supply of armaments for MiG-29K aircraft which, inter alia, catered for supply of 40 Air to Air missiles [R-77] at a cost of USD 21.88 million.
Audit noted that there was a delay of 51 months in finalising the weapon package for MiG 29K aircraft, Indian Navy failed to adopt an integrated approach to utilise the data/knowledge base of IAF and consequently ended up by procuring 40 missiles worth USD 21.88 million (Rs 97.67 crore) whose serviceability has been found unreliable by the IAF. Thus, the Ministry modified the decision of CFA by decreasing the quantity of approved armament and procured additional items worth Rs 93.68 crore which were not envisaged at the time of seeking approval of CFA to sustain within the financial ceiling. Further, Indian Navy procured Air to Air missiles [R-77] costing USD 21.88 million which had a track record of poor serviceability for which the IAF is seeking replacement since November 2005. The matter was referred to the Ministry in November 2010; their reply was awaited as of July 2011.”
Vnomad$250m worth of R-27s is ~500 missiles. That is between 2 and 3 for each Su-30MKI.. Certainly enough to become a standard missile. Other air forces order even far less than that..
http://defenseupdates.blogspot.sk/2013/04/singapore-to-buy-100-aim-120c7-amraam.html
That’s just the most recent order (which will probably be expanded further as old stocks are replaced). The IAF already has an extensive inventory of R-27s.
SIPRI (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute) reported that 300 R-27R1/T1 air-to-air missiles were ordered by the Indian Air Force in 1995 and all 300 missiles were delivered in the same year. SIPRI reported that 1140 R-27E missiles were ordered in 1996 and 250 were delivered by 2001. SIPRI also reported that 1140 R-27R1/T1 missiles were ordered from Ukraine in 1996 and 304 were delivered by 2001. As per the annual UN conventional arms register, the Indian Government reported it had purchased 40 R-27ER1 and 36 R-27ET1 missiles in 1999 and 20 R-27ER1 and 20 R-27ET1 missiles in 2000. – Link
VnomadLike I said on the IAF thread, the actual ‘quoted’ comments are far from jingoistic –
1. According to Group Captain Srivastav, who happens to be the IAF’s most experienced Su-30 pilot, his pilots showed “flexibility and adaptability to a new environment and operating conditions and on this benchmark, I would rate them exceptional.”
2. Group Captain Srivastav told NDTV his pilots performed “fairly well” though “quantifying [the results] is difficult”.
VnomadYes yes. The same thing happened then, Indian claims and no counter claims.
Combat aircraft monthly for the official story, next month
RAF Fairford (Britain) : Britain’s frontline fighter jet Eurofighter Typhoon, shortlisted for India’s $10.4-billion combat jets tender, whacked the Indian Air Force (IAF) warhorse Sukhoi in one-on-one dog fights during bilateral air war games, if Britain’s air chief is to be believed.
“Well, they lost,” was Stephen Dalton’s response when IANS asked how the Russia-developed India-manufactured Su-30MKI air superiority jets performed against the Royal Air Force’s (RAF) Typhoons when they matched their wits during the joint exercises in recent years.
However, he was quick to add that the two aircraft are different in technologies, and that Typhoons are next generation, and hence there is no comparison.
Dalton was interacting with IANS at the recently held Royal International Air Tattoo military air show at the RAF base here. – Link
VnomadVnomadPossibly.. I am not well informed about the subversions of the R-77 and which ones are used with the IAF, can anyone shed more light on this?
The Su-30MKI’s standard long range BVR weapon is now the R-27AE. (IIRC they weren’t too happy with their R-77s. Edit: Link)
Artem delivers first batch of R-27 missiles to Indian Air Force
Vnomadeven if overall aircraft performance comes way after political considerations in such deals, if you want to have credibility you absolutely need either no hard facts at all (ideal as you can put forward any argument you like pushing your product forward and downplaying the opposition), or hard facts in your favor (more limiting, but still useful)… what you definitely do not need is hard facts against your case, so, after the french claims, and now IAF scoring like that, it will be complicated for any Eurofighter seller to come and claim to be the best while retaining at least some credibility, so, no, one can be pretty sure of one thing: whatever the real score, the RAF did not loose these confrontations on purpose
On the contrary, its futile to make generalizations from clashes where even the rules of engagement haven’t been revealed. The Su-30MKI is a big aircraft and easier to visually acquire. Was that catered for? It always enters WVR combat with two pilots and two sets HMDs where the WSO can exclusively concentrate on getting the other guy in his sights. Was that catered for? Finally, the Su-30MKI excels at low speed high AoA manoeuvring. In an engagement that starts slow, its likely come out on top.
Also exercises like these have no impact at all on the procurement decisions of any professional air force (which will undoubtedly demand to test the fighters first hand). The purpose is to learn and train to be better, not to further internet debates.
VnomadSo Molehill, IN what light does Pakistan Airforce gets painted when an PAF “official” brags as in this case:
F-16 Falcon fighter have beaten the RAF’s brand-new Eurofighter Typhoon superfighters during air combat exercises in Turkey, according to a Pakistani officer.
Apparently, this whole interview (of which the Typhoon was only a small part) was made up –
VnomadSo are you suggesting the journalist made up the 12-0 claim?
Or maybe he got it from the usual way in which he media comes up with reports. Point is, no IAF spokesman has made any comment on the kill-ratios achieved during the exercise.
As for “shoring up support for the F-22”; that’s exactly the point. This is all political. The question then becomes; what political signals can we read from this? First, that the IAF are world-class, and they know what they are doing.
Second, that the SU-30mki is world-class.
Third; Typhoon will never fly in Indian colors…
Again, you can read political intentions from official statements, which doesn’t apply to this case. If it did, one would read it as the Su-30MKI being an adequate replacement for the MMRCA (where both the EF & Rafale were judged to have cleared the technical phase). More so since the the Su-30MKI appears to have demonstrated good serviceability during the exercise.
The IAF also encountered no serviceability issues with any of its participating jets. All Su-30s were available for the daily exercises which took place over two blocks, one in the morning, the other in the afternoon for a total of eight sorties daily.
VnomadCope India anyone? Funny how the RAF never reveals any results from exercises, nor does the USAF. Speaks volumes, not in a good way about others. It is an exercise.
To be fair, what the IAF actually said was –
1. Group Captain Ashu Srivastav, the Contingent Commander in the exercises, told NDTV that the performance of his pilots was “exceptional.” According to Group Captain Srivastav, who happens to be the IAF’s most experienced Su-30 pilot, his pilots showed “flexibility and adaptability to a new environment and operating conditions and on this benchmark, I would rate them exceptional.”
2. Group Captain Srivastav told NDTV his pilots performed “fairly well” though “quantifying [the results] is difficult”.
No IAF officer has been quoted making a 12-0 claim in there. No IAF pilot commented on the Cope India results either AFAIK (those results were put out by the USAF brass IIRC, likely looking to shore up support for the F-22). As for what the media can get hold off, I’m sure you remember the RAF Typhoon that ‘killed’ two USAF F-15Es single-handedly. Now where did that story come from?
VnomadI was not aware of that one, interesting. Will this mk1p variant have an impact on the number of mk1 they will order? Or will they stick to the 40?
My understanding is that they’ll stick to 40 for the Mk1. The subsequent Mk1-A/P will likely have a production run of around 40 units too (more if the Mk2 is delayed).
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