VnomadThat always sounded like 100% BS to me.
It was reported by multiple sources. And I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the reporting was completely accurate. The PAK FA as it exists today is an purely Russian program and its proprietors would feel no particular need to allow a team of foreign observers to scrutinize the extent of damage sustained by aircraft after putting out a fire. I’d bet even the picture of the burnt T-50-5 was a ‘leak’ rather than something that had official approval.
(An apt example here is the F-35 where we’re seeing the first pictures of the damaged aircraft, an year later, after the root cause had been identified and addressed. Some things they’d just like to bury.)
As for what FGFA entails, we simply don’t know.
We’re still free to make an educated guess. But neither I nor anybody else seems to have any feasible proposals. If we look at it logically, the PAK FA has already matured well beyond the point where genuine outside participation would be doable.
I have always thought it was mostly be T-50 with a few Indian components swapped in, and most of the money would go into setting up domestic production in India, perhaps to a greater extent than MKI started out with.
Maybe a number of systems produced jointly by the two nations and used by both air forces on their respective aircraft- though nothing specific has been named.
It makes no sense to start negotiating terms for production infrastructure before negotiations for the aircraft have even begin.
The T-50 is already flying with components that are entirely Russian. It is possible that some of those Russian components could be manufactured under license by Indian suppliers and then delivered for both Russian & Indian aircraft, but that describes an offsets deal not an agreement for ‘joint development’. (Similar to Saab sourcing MLGs, rear fuselages and design & engineering services from South Africa.)
VnomadCould you detail what issues they have with K/KUB?
They had major issues with engine failure, reportedly due to debris ingestion (surprising considering its equipped with a FOD screen).
With regard to ‘teething issues’ at induction – Russians Give Indian Navy Big MiG-29K Induction Troubles. (No details given though.)
VnomadThe relevant information is not in the public domain — speculation is just that. If such a development contract is signed, we can only hope and assume that there is justification for it. We have seen with MMRCA that Modi and co. are not averse to throwing out the existing playbook if they believe it necessary/sensible to do so.
‘Its classified’?? 😮
Given the relative transparency with which most Indian military projects function, there’s absolutely no reason for them to withhold the particulars of this particular program. Especially given the amount of public money that the venture would entail. Come to think of it, the fact that the Indian delegation viewing the T-50-5 display were refused access to the aircraft suggests that there isn’t any high-level super-secret collaboration going on and what you see is what you get.
A simpler explanation is that the current effort is coasting on bureaucratic inertia generated with MoUs signed a decade ago, back when the PAK FA was actually in early-development. As far as Modi & Co. are concerned, the truncated MMRCA deal (‘worst of both worlds’) indicates that its quite possible for ‘decisiveness’ to take priority over ‘plain logic’.
VnomadWith the MKI program we saw aircraft delivered in several batches with slightly different configurations. This was in the news recently with problems with some Russian component fitted to only one batch of MKIs.
Given how much water has gone under the bridge in terms of PAK FA development, I think it is quite possible that we will see a similar batch approach to FGFA production/delivery, with the first incorporating only minor changes and more substantial changes left for later, perhaps with the possibility/intention of retrofitting the first batch at MLU.
That still leaves the basic question unanswered. What’s the justification for paying upfront for a development contract (the Su-30MKI didn’t need one)? As opposed to signing a licensed production deal for the PAK FA, as when it reaches a level of maturity that the IAF finds suitable.
VnomadFGFA will be whatever India wants it to be, within funding and timeline constraints. India will want the *ability* to replace Russian subsystems such as radar with indigenous equivalents, to be taken up at the appropriate time.
Ultimately it is in Russia’s interest also to get Indian industry invested in FGFA. Further orders in late 2020s are far more likely if Indian industry also stands to benefit.
What is the priority for the FGFA vis a vis the PAK FA? What exactly will the money and manpower allocated now be used for?
With PAK FA program striving for a high degree of sensor fusion, it isn’t going to possible to switch out the radar or EW system as easily as it would on a federated system like the Su-30. Not at a reasonable cost anyway. Theoretically, there’s no end to the modifications that they can perform on the aircraft but practically speaking I can’t think of anything that they’d change aside from the HMS, LDP and integration of a few non-standard munitions (all relatively minor upgrades).
VnomadCan someone point out the salient differences between the PAK FA and FGFA? Aside from the IFF & data-link. With the whole two-seat angle scrapped, it appears they are going to be identical. Which begs the question – what’s the ‘development’ contract for?
VnomadNo it did not.
According to India’s own testing parameters , the T-90 won head to head.
Err.. no. When ‘missile firing’ capability was excluded, as it should have been since it wasn’t ordered on the Arjun (despite the capability being demonstrated), the Arjun was found to have a comparable score. To quote directly from the CAG report –
Barring missile firing ability, the scores of MBT Arjun and T-90 tank would be 25.77 and 24.50 respectively in firepower. In the overall comparative score, T-90 tank scored 75.01, marginally higher than MBT Arjun which scored 72.46, mainly because of higher score on missile firing ability of T-90 tank.
____________________
Unfortunately what that final score doesn’t reflect and the CAG did report, was that the testing parameters for the T-90 were relaxed across the board to improve its competitiveness. The details of which are catalogued in an chart attached as an annexure to the report.
There is a reason the Arjun is considered the biggest joke of a tank program in decades on any serious armored forum outside of Indian forums like BharatRakshak.
Fortunately there’s no need to go to any armoured forums, when you can get the facts straight from the horse’s mouth.
Vnomadwhats wrong with the Arjun?
Very very late (but here now). On the pricier side (result of limited production volumes). Logistically incompatible with the bulk of the IA tank fleet (bulk of which consists of obsolescent T-72s). Doesn’t have a lot of support in the Army. It did however outperform the IA’s T-90s in head-to-head comparative trials held couple of years ago (results confirmed by a recent comptroller report).
Vnomadrhetorical question: why would USA bother to build F-22 performance,
and Russia trying hard to beat it,
…if the answer to air dominance was a bomber ?
F-15/F-16::F-22/F-35
a missile get more range if you launch it at a higher speed, and better maneuverability at intercept,
and less range if target is fast and maneuverable, with poorer Pk.Why do you persist in ignoring physics ?
I’d certainly be happier if the F-35 were as fast and maneuverable as the F-22. But the ability to see first and launch first will always take priority. And PAK FA/J-20 aside, when pitted against a conventional fighter like one from the Su-27 family, its the F-35 that’s be running ahead and interfering with its opponent’s OODA loop.
Vnomadyes, that was my point
Yes yes. Very witty.
If you have the time, you may want to look into what the pilots actually flying with it have to say.
Vnomadpardon me but this is not fact, its your faith
I imagine they said the same thing about the original Shchel/Archer system too. The value of 360 deg vision and a system that generates (squint-free) IFF tracks within a fur-ball, should be self-evident. That the airframe is operationally rated to an AoA of 50 degrees is just icing on the cake.
Vnomadgetting a little touchy are we? 😀
actually, Eastern Ukraine seperated by popular vote. even if you assume it wasn’t completely correct, it’s clear that the majority there wants to seperate from Kiev
Russia supported this, while the West has supported Kiev in invading and killing what is in effect a sovereign nation
when Russia supports a rebel movement, it’s terrorism and invasion. when the West supports seperatists in Kosovo, South Sudan, Lybia or Syria, it’s “democracy”
The morality of the Ukrainian conflict is irrelevant.
The point is that five years ago you would have happily told the world, that the probability of a conflict between Ukraine and Russia, was the same as an extraterrestrial invasion or an ISIS siege of Helsinki. Finland probably has a different take on the matter.
if Finland should be worried about being controlled by any foreign interests, it’s Washington and Brussels, rather than Moscow
What you think they should be worried about is not the issue. What they are worried about (militarily at least) is what matters. And that, fortunately or unfortunately, does not include the EU or NATO.
1. Su-30s have done very well in practice against Western fighters. the F-35 uses the same missiles, so long range combat outcome would depend on the Su’s ability to detect, jam and dodge those missiles
2. if any Su every gets into a dogfight with an F-35, no amount of stealth or jamming will protect it against a faster and more mobile enemy with a cannon
3. that’s a pretty poor match up against an outdated aircraft that costs only 40%, asuming the F-35 can live up to its abilities (which I want to see first)
4. if the F-35 ever does face off against a Su, it’ll likely be one with post 2020 technology, including spheric optical sensors and optical missiles, that’ll make that stealth irrelevant at short range
1. Only against western fighters of the same generation. And it has never demonstrated such a capability (of reliably jamming or dodging those missiles).
2. The Sukhoi will likely be dead long before it gets into a dogfight. Within a dogfight the F-35 will always have the upper hand thanks the EODAS-HMDS combination. And except for the Su-35, the Sukhois will be neither faster nor more ‘mobile’.
3. The kill ratio against the MK2 will be very lopsided, in the F-35’s favour.
4. The only Sukhoi with spherical optical sensors in development is the PAK FA and being a ‘head-down’ system it can’t be employed for targeting in the same way (if at all). A true analogue to the DAS-HMDS available as retrofit option wouldn’t come around before 2030.
every aircraft in history has crashed and encountered other serious problems after its introduction
the F-35 wasn’t supposed to have any problems, because computer simulations were supposed to make that impossible
so it has already failed to deliver, is way over time, and has balooned in cost
and it is the most complex weapons system on the planet. believe me, it’s problems have yet to begin
The F-35 has already faced serious problems and already overcome serious problems. 30,000+ flight hours.
But your argument is interesting considering that the F-35 has a 5-7 year head-start over the Gripen E. So according to your theory, its the Gripen E’s problems that ‘have yet to begin‘. 😀
the F-111 was a good aircraft too, eventually. it was way over cost, only a fraction of planned numbers were built, and it was a hangar queen. but it served its role, after many years of problems
the F-35 is its succesor, a total lemon. I’m sure they’ll get it to work to a degree, but it’ll still be a highly inefficient way of spending resources
but not that that matters, the US and the rest of the West are quickly spending their way into default, and they know it
which is why I’ll be emigrating to a safer place, I’m not going to pick up that bill
I’m sure the West will soon resemble the new Mad Max movie and I’m sure they’ll miss you tremendously when that day comes. 😉
the F-4 really struggled against older Mig designs in dogfights. the only edge it had was its speed. if the older Migs had been faster, they would have owned the F-4 no problem
the F-35 faces similar problems. it has the edge against older designs thanks to its technology and stealth, and to a degree its speed
but unlike the old Migs, the new ones will most likely be equiped with new engines, technology and weapons (Su-35)
in the coming years, the power of new technology will only increase, and its cost decrease, because of Moore’s law. and it will do so exponentially, which means the F-35’s tech will become obsolete faster than ever before
so 10 years from now, I do believe old Su-27 can get upgrades that make them equal, or even superior, to much newer and pricier F-35s
the most obvious reason for this is someone invents a radar that can detect current stealth designs, which would greatly undercut the F-35 and F-22
Trouble with this fantasy is that when the ‘anti-stealth’ silver bullet tech is invented (which should happen any day now), its not just the F-22, F-35 & B-2 that take a hit, but also the PAK FA, J-20, J-31 (and derivatives of the K-FX, TFX, ATD-X, AMCA, PAK DA, Neuron, Taranis, SKAT, 601-S and so on).
you might want to read up on the Gorgon Stare. it can track every license plate in a small city at the same time
in the near future every sensor will be able to do this
and you don’t need to watch an entire country, just known air bases and patrol routes
Small city huh? Hmm.. I guess stealth is obsolete. So.. are you going to tell all the buffoons.. err I mean boffins working on stealth aircraft around the world, or do we let someone else do it?
in a nuke war, certainly. and so will every F-35 operating air base
Nuclear weapons exist to deter conflict and guarantee the survival of the state. They are not a war-fighting tool.
if it sits on an air base and follows stealth fighters as they take off, then yes
but, like the F-35, that technology is top secret, which means its so good and unfallable that you can’t question it
Again, where is this recon stealth UAV capable of air combat to come from? Is it the one in Iranian hands? Is such a thing in development anywhere?
yes, which is why I think Finland shouldn’t buy new fighters
and just upgrade the F-18 if they insist on keeping it current
You’re certainly welcome to your opinion. Just don’t expect the Finns to accept it.
and how much did they plan for the F-22, before it got cancelled?
The closing down of the F-22 production didn’t come as a big surprise to most people. In contrast, your prediction of the F-35 program being cancelled before 2020 is unlikely to generate much traction.
the Avenger would be a good candidate, minimum of stealth, only $15 milion
and doubles as light recon aircraft
actually if Finland wants to buy anything, it should get the Avenger
$15 million? So.. cheaper than the non-LO mass-produced turboprop MQ-9. :rolleyes:
VnomadNo disrespect here but what you believe is hardly important…
LOL. I said I’ll believe it when the Chinese and the Russians believe it. (Not to mention the dozen plus countries signing up for the F-35.)
VnomadBut Estrada confirmed the AESA is designed to detect targets with small radar cross sections.
“I don’t know the specifics with the T-50,” Estrada says,
“but I will tell you that this -(V)3 radar is very capable of detecting low-RCS platforms”.
.
.
.
ed: A russian commander remarked it was ironic that US developed counter to low rcs, referring to AESA
Long way from that to ‘AESA technology can nullify stealth’. I’ll believe it for a fact, when the folks at Sukhoi/KnAAPO and Chengdu/Shenyang come to that realization and abandon their projects in favour of the innovations being proposed here.
Vnomadand let’s not forgot ISIS, I heard they’re planning to make Helsinki the capital when they conquer the planet. in 2016
How about you spend a summer holiday in East Ukraine. I bet the weather’s lovely this time of the year.
Su-30 is $37m
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30
so yes, I’ll give you that one
That’s about 40% of the cost of a F-35A flyaway. And the MK2 doesn’t stand much of chance against the latter in air combat. Same applies to the $65M Su-30MKI.
3 out of 5 F-22s crashed after their introduction
the F-35 has more code than any aircraft on the planet. its engine shows problems, where computer simulations predicted there shouldn’t be any
the Su-27 model has been flying for decades. its defects are known, and its gun works. I’ll take that over an aircraft being rushed into production because the Pentagon wants to lock it in before defects limit orders
I repeat – over 30,000 flight hours with only 1 Cat A mishap. Parroting the F-22’s safety record is pointless, when we already have a statistically adequate flight record from the F-35 to work with.
As for the second part, the F-35’s production is already secure, retrofit costs have plummeted and it will be in its third iteration by the time the Finns order their aircraft, unlike the Gripen E which will just be IOCing.
every technology in history has been countered at some point. stealth is countered by different bands of radar, radar is jammed by stealth and jammers…
the F-35 is not invincible, its technology will become dated at some point, probably sooner than later, and the Su-35 and T-50 are being designed with the F-22 and F-35 in mind
That the F-35 will one day be obsolescent is true. That older gen aircraft will be the ones to overtake is utter nonsense. Also, the Su-35 is not ‘being’ designed, it was designed a fairly long time ago. As for the PAK FA, it is a valid alternative to the F-35. Still in early development, so only time will tell how well they compare. It is however NOT a feasible alternative for Finland for obvious reasons.
can’t find the quote, but when the J-20 came out Air Force officials said F15s with AESA radars would be able to detect them at a decent range
Empty unverifiable claim. I’m more interesting in hearing a statement about ‘F15s with AESA radars’ tracking the F-35 at a ‘decent range’.
seriously? here’s a google maps image of airliners
explain to me why a dedicated Russian spy satellite can’t see an F-35; last I checked it’s stealthy, not invisible
Its not Zeus sitting up there. It uses an optical sensor that has all the limitations of an optical sensor. There’s difference between reading a license plate of a car, and tracking every plate in Ireland in real time.
Explain to me what systems you intend to induct to protect that spy satellite in the sky. Because that’ll be the very first thing to be targeted.
as for stealthy recon UAVs, yeah, those don’t exist, and it’s not like a close Russian ally has a nearly intact one lying around
And you think this ‘stealthy recon UAV’ in Iranian hands is capable of detecting and tracking stealth fighters?
don’t get me wrong, Saab was accused of bribery in Switserland
but the Gripen is Sweden’s only fighter jet option, and they desperatly want to sell it. it has to be efficient and effective
while the F-35 is just an excuse to spend obscene amounts of tax payers’ Dollars. if it fails, the Pentagon has plenty of (cheaper) alternatives
and if it sucks, no one can prove it, because that information is top secret
Balderdash. Every ‘cheaper alternative’ available to the USAF is also available to the SwAF. As is the option of older Gripen C/Ds. Not to mention, if the world subscribed to your ‘peace in our time‘ certainty, the ‘efficient and effective’ qualities of any fighter would be redundant.
I just don’t have much faith in politicians and bureaucrats, who don’t even go before a judge if they take bribes
The complaining about corruption sounds pretty hollow when its the 15th customer lining up at the door not just the first or second.
And the predictions about imminent cancellation, ring just as hollow, when one is done counting the 130 units in service, 120 odd in various stages of production, and the bulk buy of 450 units in advanced planning.
I’d suggest using other aircraft and UCAVs as a forward communications node
Which of these ‘other’ aircraft and UCAVs’ dedicated to operating as a comm relay, is available on the cheap?
I believe conventional war with nukes is just called a nuclear war
There’s more than adequate space for a conventional conflict fought without the employment of nuclear weapons. And that’s still no excuse for confusing it with a COIN campaign.
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