VnomadF-7PG was inducted in late 90s, MIG-21s were late 70s. Lets not let facts get in our way right?
The F-7PG was inducted starting 2002, not in the late 90s. And that BTW is precisely why its not retiring any time soon, let alone in the next five years.
(And for the record, you were wrong about the Bisons too which were created by upgrading newer MiG-21bis airframes, a type which was manufactured 1980-85.)
VnomadPAF’s entire A/B fleet went through Falcon UP/Falcon STAR. No Indian plan has been through such an upgrade, This essentially gave the PAF zero timed airframes.
Ah right. The Benjamin Button effect where a life extension project becomes a reverse ageing program.
VnomadYou know what you wrote. Anyway, it seems then you agree with my point and my original points remain. IAF will be flying MIG-21s till at least 2028
My posts remained unedited. Everybody (save for you) knows what I wrote. And your original post was about ‘ancient’ MiGs which applies to the M & bis, not to the Bisons. And there’s nothing to suggest that the F-7PG would retire before the Bison either.
VnomadWell, in that Janes article the defence minister believes its a done deal. I’ll take his statements over your opinion regarding the 36 rafaels. Thanks.
Show me the signed contract. Thanks.
The deal is at a very early stage of negotiation and there’s nothing about it that equates to a ‘done deal’ any more than the original MMRCA was a ‘done deal’.
The Jaguars, MIG-21s and MIG-27s in all add up to around 300 planes. All of them are 30+ years old, with the Jaguars and Bisons expected to be retired when they are around 40+ years old…
To put it in context, after the Mirages go in a few years, PAF’s oldest planes will be around 15-20 years old
The PAF’s F-16s are also 30+ years old. :rolleyes:
VnomadHang on, a few posts earlier you said all the MIGs will be retired at the end of the decade. Now it’s 2025. These are not fact based arguments you are now making, just changing your opnions constantly right?
Indian DM has said the Migs wont be started to replaced till 2022 (in the very optimistic scenario that the MCA MKII has no development delays). So how will all the MiGs (10 squadrons) be replaced by 2025!!!!!????
And if you were to stop to actually read it instead of stumbling past it, you’ll find I said that the MiG-21bis will be retired. The IAF will continue to induct the Tejas Mk1 & Su-30MKI over the next ten years.
VnomadThere are no longer any Alouttes in PA/PAF service. If you dont want to believe that I cannot help it.
You say it was retired two years ago. Alan Warnes says he personally took note of serving Alouette IIIs & Lamas, one and a half years ago. So, a conclusion is not hard to come to.
Again, you cannot seem to understand pure facts, PAF is in the middle of retiring all Mirages and F-7s. JF-17s are being produced in China and Kamra and F-16s have already replaced several squadrons. The production line (as per AFM article last week) is churning out more at a rate of 24 per year. Thats another 120 by 2020.
The retirement of all F-7s is not a fact, let alone a ‘pure’ fact. It is entirely speculation on your part.
Several Indian ACMs have catagorically stated LCA will replace MIG-21s and MIG-27s. These MK2 planes have not even taken off in prototype form yet.
And if you’ll look around you’ll find plenty of information about the MiG-27 retirement.
Are you living on a different planet?
I’m on the same planet as Alan Warnes. Which one are you one?
Maybe you want to try arguing with Janes instead? MIGs wont even start to be replaced until at least 2022
Cute. The minister obviously misspoke. The MiGs have been retiring for years now.
VnomadHow can the sizeable Mig-21 and 27 fleets be replaced so quickly before the end of the decade (around 4.5 years now), given that the original MMRCA tender is now dead? There’s no way production of the LCA MKI can be ramped up that quickly, let alone have the production capacity to meet that requirement. That would lead credence to Parrikar’s statement about the 2022 timeframe, when the extra funds from the MMRCA can be diverted to ramp up LCA MKI production, and perhaps speed up the development of the MKII. In any case, it’s clear the Mig-21s and 27s will be around for a while yet, especially given their much “vaunted” capability.
The MiG-27 will be retired, no two ways about it, though the two upgraded squadrons might soldier on to the end of the decade. As for the MiG-21, only the M & bis models will be retired. The Bisons will carry on till 2025. To compensate the MoD will increase the Tejas Mk1 production while probably extending the Su-30MKI production (currently slated to run to 2018).
VnomadThe PGs will be the last of the F-7s to be retired, given their lower airframe age and relatively more modern airframe compared with the F-7s, but I wouldn’t say “long time”, given the rate of JF-17 production and the extra capability that the JF-17 brings. Some of the older Mirage units have already gone, and assuming the current JF-17 production rate continues, the remainder should be gone by around 2020. I was quite surprised at how quickly the PAF retired the A-5s and pressed the JF-17s into active service in their operations against the Taliban. In my view, the A-5s still had a good few more years left in them, and were ideal CAS platforms with their heavy cannons, armour protection and decent external loads.
Its also a reflection of the aircraft themselves. The A-5s may have been newer but weren’t nearly as robust as the Mirage III for example. There are some types that are more hassle then they’re worth. (For the IAF that probably applies to the MiG-27 and the now retired MiG-23.)
Vnomad8 types
No, the old Migs will not even start to be replaced till 2022, and its 10 squadrons that will need to be replaced, as per a statement 4 days ago by India’s defence minister, that will take at least another 5 years so you are looking at 2027 at the very earliest!
The Rafale deal has not been signed and is unlikely to ever move past negotiation. Nor will it ever co-exist with the MiG-27.
IAF probably operates the oldest fighter force in the world
Don’t be silly. The vast majority of the IAF fleet was built after 1980 with almost a third of that delivered over the last 15 years.
VnomadEvery air arm with have a host of a small number of special types. The combat power of the IAF v PAF lies simply in the massive amount of fighters.
LOL. So ‘special types’ of aircraft are immune to logistical hurdles?
To put it very bluntly, by 2020 (as more JF-17s and F-16s come online) PAF will have a 2 type (max 3 type fleet) of around 400 planes.
IAF will have a fleet of around 700 planes consisting of some 8 different types, some ancient types, with no prospect of immediate replacement of the 6 squadrons of ancient MIGS (as the LCA MK II is not due to flight test til 2018).
To start with, your ‘8 types’ certainly doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. And all the ‘ancient’ types (namely the MiG-21bis & MiG-27) are slated to be retired before the end of the decade.
Really is that simple
Yup. Wouldn’t want to mess up that simplicity by accounting for helos and transports, would we?
VnomadNo, you are being deliberately disinegous with what you are stating as fact.
The Alouttes retired two years ago.
A batch of second hand Alouette was acquired from Switzerland in 2010-11 and the type was operational in late 2013 as per Alan Warnes. All that happened two years ago was that it was pulled out of high altitude duties. If you have sources proving that every last one has been retired, post them.
The F-27s and Atlantics you state as being in PN service were retired 3 years ago.
Duly noted and acknowledged on the other thread.
Nothing to do with predictions. PAF has been constantky withdrawing older fighters with more and more JF-17s coming online, whilst the IAF fleet continues to age.
When exactly the entirely type will be retired is a nothing but a prediction on your part.
Last cout JF-17 Block IIs are now rolling of the production line. 3 JF-17 sqds in service and 4 F-16 sqds. by 2020 all 6 remaining F-7 and Mirage sqds should be phased out if production continues as it is.
That will leave just a JF-17/F-16 fleet with perhaps F-7PGs as LIFT.
IAF is nowhere near replacing its aging MIGs.
The ageing MiG-27 is being retired. The Bisons will be retired before the F-7PG. And the MiG-29s still have plenty of airframe life remaining.
VnomadI’ll simplify this as VNomad seems incapable of understanding the math here
My post was about the facts as exists as of today i.e. 2015. Not your predictions about what might be in 2020 (why not 2025 or 2030).
By 2020 PAF is on course to have 2 types of fighters in it’s fleet (Two Mirage sqds have already been retired and replaced by JF-17s and a Mirage unit was also replaced by F-16C/D)
Funny. On the IAF thread you were determined to bring helicopters and transports into the equation. Now you’re backpedaling hard to, ‘only fighter aircraft are relevant’, huh? And FYI the F-7PGs will be around for a long time.
Let me know if any of the above is incorrect
The MiG-27s will be out by 2020. And where is the signed contract for the Rafale?
Atlantic and F-27 retired
And BN-2 retired on the Indian side. So that’s 5 types for the PN v 6 types for the IN. Close enough.
VnomadYou are still missing the point, PAF/Pak Army/PN are currently retiring many older types
k-8 replacing T-37s (the ones the US delivered were from 10 years ago)
JF-17 and F-16s replacing mirages and F-7sUntil the LCA MK2 comes along IAF will be saddled with 8 fighter types against PAF having 2 types.
Can you not understand the inherent implication of this on serviceability, pilot training, cost and logistics?
I listed out the aircraft that exist today not what might be years from now. And turns out you were wrong about the Aloutte, wrong about the T-37 and wrong about the Lama. So its probably prudent to stick to what is, rather than your prediction of what will be.
VnomadIf we add Indian Navy and Coast Guard we’ll get 50+ airframes. I’m not sure what the point is.
I made that post to pour cold water on some very silly ideas being propagated on the IAF thread, not to start a pissing contest.
But for the record, if you add the Indian Navy and Coast Guard, you get an additional 7 types – Sea King, Ka-28, BN-2, Il-38, Tu-142, P-8I). [BTW that’s 7 types for the PN as well – Sea King, Z-9, ATR-72, PC-3, Atlantic, F27, Hawker 800]. Haven’t included the Harriers, MiG-29Ks and Ka-31s, for obvious reasons.
VnomadYou know I would be horrified if they use any kind of a Adour! Eurojet are looking for new projects…..
The EJ-200 is overkill. That’s enough thrust to push it.. err.. supersonic.
Hmm.. on second thought. :eagerness:
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