Vnomadin any case, what I pointed out was that the US have the policy of keeping weapons under their control, while the french deliver and let you do what you want with them. In the first case you can hardly consider yourself as “independant”.
India isn’t going to be using its aircraft to get into complex network of conflicts in the Middle East with a bunch of state, non-state actors. Its military priorities are cut, dry and predictable.
As for the “support” against China, nobody can say today how the tables will turn in the following years, and in such environment, having your stuff under your own control is certainly more confortable than having to hope that the guys having your weapons will let you use them for good, should the need arise
That’s vague attitude which applies to Europeans that don’t face any organic military threats. The situation is far simpler in South & East Asia. If somehow India stops facing a military threat from China (& Pakistan) and finds itself in say… Brazil’s shoes, its better off spending its money on other more socially productive projects.
But even if we go with your idea – that the future is uncertain and nothing should be granted. Well then the corollary to that is – there’s no guarantee that the independence & assurance of ordering from France won’t turn out to be a mirage (case in point: Mistral LHDs). Fact is, the future (or futures if you prefer) can be predicted to some extent and the world has no option to work with those cues.
VnomadSo the F-35 will be standing off in the same fashion as a platform that given the same production run will be considerably cheaper.
Which other platform has the same or similar production run?
Long range strike against a static target isn’t the sole purpose of a fighter aircraft. The F-35 does that as well as any other aircraft and better than most, and then does plenty more besides.
VnomadNobody has said France will provide support to India in the event of a war with China, let alone stronger support, Yet here we have a posters comment presented as stating that by one of the F-35 gang.
We then see another claim being put out there that nobody has even thought of let alone written.
Instead of going off half cocked perhaps you should read the post to which I was responding. Too_Cool12F was discussing the political consequences for India, of ordering an aircraft from the US (vis a vis ordering from France). So the context of my post would have been easily understood by anybody who wasn’t too lazy to actually read the quoted part as well.
Vnomad1000km inside enemy territory means that, as an example, the F35A needs to be based within artillery range (artillery like BM30) from the frontline to accomplish that. And that is assuming they fly in a straight line.
Have you added the range of the JSM/JSOW-ER to that?
VnomadHint 2 : Y is probably not the USA either,
Which country is Y? Japan, with its pacifist constitution? Or Russia, with its rapidly strengthening ties with China?
but at least, France won’t hold them back like the USA would (and do today with others)
You think in the event of (or lead up to) an Indo-China war, France would provide stronger support to India than the US? In terms of say… expedited supplies of aircraft, spares and/or munitions, as well as intelligence. The same France that has been trying for over a decade to get the EU arms embargo on China lifted?
VnomadOh really?
Different Eagle actually.
Vnomadwhile India isn’t signed yet, they do need new fighters, and need them fast. What else will they buy if they don’t want to depend on a single supplier?
Supplier diversification at what price? Because the current estimate is $6 billion+ for 36 Rafales.
considering that US fighters come with strings attached (as seen recently) several states, not unlike Egypt, have seen their interest in alternative platforms increase a lot. The political weight that allowed some of the US exports despite not being preferred can’t outdo the dependance these nations fall into if they have to ask for permission to fire any weapon they paid for (and thought they have bought).
Egypt, Iran, Qatar et al are irrelevant.
Simple question is, which country X is the primary threat to India? (Hint: X is not Pakistan.) And from which country Y will it receive the strongest support in the event of escalating tensions with, or god forbid, an actual conflict against X? (Hint: Y is not France.)
VnomadI am reading this thread with pop corn smiling at the resentment and the jealousy against the rafale knowing this is the clear mark of its success. A great feeling of satisfaction. I wish I could participate more but I currently lack the time to be fully in. Anyway a lot of fun.
That’s an interesting philosophy. Seeing as the F-35 has received 10 times as much criticism as the Rafale (while still clocking consistent export victory), perhaps we can conclude its destined to be 10 times more successful, with the criticism founded on nothing but base jealousy. 😉
VnomadRafale’s deal today:
1. Domestic order: 180 (and perhaps 45 more after 2020).
2. Exporting order: 84 (plus 12 optional) from the three foreign customers.
While there’s a good likelihood of a positive outcome (for France that is), given its history, I wouldn’t call the Indian order a cinch as yet. Though its received a political green light, the negotiations in fact haven’t even begun yet.
“The government-to-government committee will be set up which will begin negotiations on the (Rafale) deal. The negotiations will start anytime in May and we have to conclude them as early as possible,” Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told PTI here. link
6. The possibile order(s) in the near future: another 45 fighters for France, another 24 to 126 fighters for India, another 12 fighters for Qatar, 60 fighters for UAE, 28 fighters for Kuwait, and 12 to 14 fighters for Bahrain.
18-36 fighters for India (1-2 squadrons depending on the PAK FA’s progress), the MMRCA’s all but dead. Kuwait & Bahrain are long shots. You should also include Malaysia where the France is making a strong push with some fairly attractive finance options.
VnomadSo is posting your imagined perfect scenario for your particular beloved and then getting upset when people laugh at it. Which way do you want it?
Who’s ‘people’? Are there multiple individuals using your account?
And when did a 4 v 4 BVR engagement (exact same limitations would apply to 2 v 2) become an ‘imagined perfect scenario’ (as opposed to run-of-the-mill training setup)?
VnomadTI found a couple of posts very amusing and commented to that effect, you didn’t like it. Shrug.
That’s called trolling. Or a flamebait depending on how far you intend to push it.
VnomadThere’s little value in attempting to achieve an answer to questions such as this on a bloody forum. Simply put none of us have the information to be able to do so.
I’m not so far up my own rectum that I feel the need to impose my thoughts on the general public based on supposition and imagination thanks.
LOL. A normal person wouldn’t have bothered to respond to a post if he truly felt it beneath him. Or would have reported to to the Mods if were an ‘imposition’ on the forum.
Your problem is that you don’t like the argument being presented, have no rebuttal to it, but still feel this overwhelming urge to make some kind of response no matter how inane it is.
VnomadBecause of course air & cosmos is the one true tactics manual of the armee de la air and F-35 fanbois on the key publishing forum are the only ones with true insight and understanding.
Pray tell o wise one… what stratagem would a real badass tactician like your good self employ in the same situation. Because in your blathering (in huge fonts no less), that’s something you seem to have omitted. Rather conveniently.
VnomadAt the end of the ‘how well a RWR tracks an AESA’ discussion, the basic drawback still remains –
You have a four aircraft Rafale flight going up against a flight of four data-linked interceptors. One hostile remains at range emitting intermittently, three others fly ahead spread out radar silent. Assuming the Rafales are loaded up with stores, the emitting platform will lock on to every single one at 100-200 km. Even if the four Rafales between them are able to generate a perfect track on the ‘loud’ hostile, its still out of Meteor range. The enemy flight on the other hand will have started lobbing AAM volleys well before.
The Rafale has no option but to use its radar, and contrary to what we often here on the forum – it is what the French train and plan to do –
From Air & Cosmos:
En combat hors de portée visuelle, cet avantage crucial permet d’améliorer la discrétion du Rafale face à ses ennemis. Alors que les avions équipés de radars AESA resteraient hors de portée des armements et des capteurs des chasseurs ennemis, d’autres Rafale non AESA s’approcheraient des cibles, radar éteint, maximisant l’effet de surprise pour mettre en Å“uvre leur Mica en profitant d’une désignation d’objectif transmise via la Liaison 16 par les Rafale à antenne active. Un concept d’emploi qui n’est pas sans rappeler celui de l’US Air Force, qui a déjà fait savoir qu’elle envisageait d’utiliser ses F-15C AESA pour détecter des cibles à longue distance, au profit de F-22 furtifs qui pourraient alors tirer leurs missiles de manière totalement discrète.
In combat beyond visual range, the crucial advantage improves the discretion of the Rafale to deal with his enemies. While aircraft equipped with AESA radars would remain out of reach of weapons and sensors of enemy fighters, other non Rafale AESA would approach the target, radar silent, maximizing the surprise effect to launch their Micas with target designation transmitted via Link 16 by Rafales with active antennas. An employment concept that is reminiscent of the US Air Force, which has already said it plans to use its F-15C AESA to detect long-range targets, the F-22s could then use their stealth to launch their missiles totally discreet manner.
Problem of course arises when the hostile flight is composed of PAK FAs, J-20s or J-31s. LO fighters can creep into missile range undetected, while conventional fighters like the Rafale… not so much.
VnomadEvery operational Rafale is now F3.4+ standard. F2 are retrofitted, aswell as F1 (but it is a longer process as the plane need to be completely rewired …)
Yes but the OSF modules are not of a common standard. All Rafales delivered after 2008 were without an IRST. So, the specific software fusing IR feeds would have to be written for what… 50 odd aircraft, less than a quarter of the 287 planned (at the time). Even the F1s wouldn’t have been upgraded with the MDPU until 2014-17.
Sign In
