firebarIn fly-off, YF-22 demonstrated 60 degrees AoA capability with Thrust Vector Control.
YF-23 demonstrated only 25 degrees. That was not enough for close combat with modern fighters.
You can not choose a fighter because it is aestethically more pleasing.
firebarYour wrong about the engines, there where 2 prototypes of each ATF design, one powered by P&W F119 engines, the other by GE F120 engines.
You are correct for early development, but I reffered to final competition.
In final competition YF-22 had PW F-119 engines. Northrop chose GE F-120 variable cycle engine for its YF-23.
firebarHere it is common that pilots retire in their 50s, a few got to the age of 60.
If you think about rather young pilots, who were about 30 years old in 1982, they should be around 53 years old today. And as Sens said, the last kill was in the middle of the eighties. So it’s hardly surprising that we don’t have names of pilots that are still active and shot down planes in combats.
Could you give us names of best scoring Israeli fighter pilots in 1982 Beka war and their scores ?
firebarYF-22 versus YF-23
YF-23 was a bit faster in dry thrust ( not much) and was stealthier design but it lost for two reasons:
-Its engines were of new and unproven design ( variable cycle ), and for that reason very expensive too, with questionable reliability.
-Its behaveour at high angles of attack left much to be desired. It was directionaly unstable at high Alpha flight because of small vertical tail area and other reasons.
Because of that, it would have no chance in close combat against modern fighters like Mig-29 or Su-27.
So, choice was correct.
firebarSorry, but the last comparison is without any logic.
The single US-flyer stayed a limited period in SE only.
He flew a limited number of mission. Some get a second term, most are not.
Most times the US-flyer flew not over NV to have a chance to sight a NV-flyer at all.The US-fighters/bombers have to come a long way up to their target over there. The NV GCI-net decided if those NV-flyer will engage those intruders or ignore those better.
The MiGs at the NV AB were off-limit to the US-flyers, even when engaged from ADs there. Some of many curiosities of this war. A NV-flyer, which had to bail out or crash-land could learn from his shortcomings and do better latter on, when most of those US-flyers spent their time as POWs. 😮
Many U.S. fighter pilots had 200 to 300 combat missions in Vietnam and they have been by far better trained generally.
You are not correct about air battles geography.
All fighter combats were placed over North Vietnam because NV pilots only defended North Vietnam. They almost never crossed South Vietnam border.
Americans had far better radar control of its fighters. They had ground control and ship control radars (Red Crown) for vectoring their fighters. Not to mention airborne radars: EC-121, E-2 Hawkeye, E-1 Tracer etc.
Take into account radar and communication jammers: EB-66, EA-6, anti radar missiles, etc, and reccon aircraft of all kinds: SR-71, U-2, RF-4, reccon drones.,..satelites etc.
VN had nothing of these. Only GCI control radars which were under constant attack.
N Vietnam AB were off limits only in the first 2 years of war and US pilots regularly have broke this rules.
You say that many US flyers were captured and spent their time as POW. That is true, but , as you know, that is the fate of many pilots who fly over foreigh country and bomb foreign people in its homes.
NV pilots only defended its country. Never forget this.
firebarI consider the vietnamese pilots great. Considering the size of the monster AF they were facing and the technology US was using, Thier efforts were great and victories were great.
They indeed deserve utmost respect.
firebarGiora Epstein, for example, is the world’s ace in jet dogfights, with 17 confirmed kill marks:
A few other names:
General Avihu Ben-Nun: Former air force commander, four kills.
General Dan Halutz: Former air force commander, three kills.
General Herzl Budinger: Former air force commander, three kills.
Brigadier General Yoel Peledsho: Two kills (MiG-23s).
Colonel Miki Levi: One kill.
Brigadier General Moshe (last name unknown): Nine and a half kills.
.
Yes I know about Col. Epstein. Retired 1997. 17 kills (8 in 1967 and 9 in 1973), all in Mirage.
Also, Col. Korn, 10,5 kills. He is reserve pilot.
But it would be fine if we had kills of in-service pilots.
firebarLearning from those shortcomings and better materials are developed over the years, none exspect really, that those Chinese built J/F-6 were built like MiG-19s from the 50s any longer. The hydraulic-lines became more durable and with higher pressure ratios over the years and by that the manouverability improves too, just as a single example. Better sealings and material for engines deliver longer and constant performances for example. The engine becomes more tolerant to constant power changes and more durable during max demands. The judgement of the “MiG-19” of the USAF was that of the J/F-6 in the 70s, when in the 60s the MiG-19s built in the 50s were phased out.
The opinion of the PAF pilots was that of the J/F-6 and not of the MiG-19 from the 50s. 😉
That is not the point. Of course that newer manufactured a/c have better sealings, materials etc. No one denies that. Engines becomes more durable. Yes.
My point is that it is basically the same aircraft.
firebarWhen Ritchie’s opinion presented the opinion of best USAF aces. Do you have a real opinion about “MiG-19″ from another ace too, when you write of best USAF aces!”
Pakistani pilots have to have a very high opinion of their Chinese F-6s as well as the Indian pilots have to have about their MiG-21s. Do you ever thought about that seriously?!
The “MiG-21/F-7” soldiers on, when the F-6 was phased out in PAF service.I am really intrested to learn from you what the lift coeficient is of F-6 !!!
Do you have data about AoA behaviors?
As you know Ritchie is the USAF ace and have experience with Mig-19. Cunninham also have very high opinion.
USAF has tested many russian fighters in USA, among them Mig-19.
It is true that Pakistani pilots have high opinion of J-6 as Indian pilots have about Mig-21. That is understandable. They are both excellent fighters. Much better than, say, F-104 or Mirage 3.
J-7 soldiers on because it is much newer produced fighter than J-6.
As I say earlier, Mig-21 is better fighter than J-6 because it has high supersonic performance. And that is very important for attacking high speed or high flying targets.
About Lift coeficient, yes I have it for almost all fighters. And that is as important for turning fight as wing loading.
Mig-19 have excellent Cl and wing loading.
Mirage 3, for example, have low wing loading but miserable Lift coeficient.
Angle of attack behaviour is one of the most important characteristic of dogfighter. One can not talk about fighter quality if not familiar with that.
firebar[QUOTE=Iranian F-14A]
Rocky,
So, Soviet MiG’s would likely never have encountered either the F-102 or F-106. The F-104 and F-101 were tasked with nuclear strike in Europe, and I doubt any MiG would catch either of them (the MiG-21 can outrun the F-101, but not for long before it’s fuel supply is exhausted) in full afterburner at low (or high) level.
Mig-21 is, of course , better interceptor than Mig-19. It is better in transonic and supersonic speeds. For that reason F-16 and F-18 are much worse than F-15, as interceptors.
What chance have F-16A against TU-22M ?
But we are talking here about dogfight. And this means speeds below 1 Mach.
You have to know that In Vietnam war Mach 2 fighters and fighter-bombers never used its max speeds. It was not productive.
firebarIn the 70s the J/F-6s were still jugded as even inferior clones of the MiG-19, when the opposite is true. Many AFs are giving standard values about engines, weight and performances. Maybe you have learned from your book, that the F-4s differs from Block to Block even.
The Russian built MiG-19s from the 50s differed in a similar way as many second-hand user within WP found out to their disgust. There are no real standard values for all examples. This simple truth does not need an expert for understanding.
That is true that Chinese have many variants of J-6, but by far most numerous version is standard one.
That is also the model encountered by Americans in Vietnam, Indians and Israelis.
Of course, lately built models have small modifications, but basicaly the aircraft is the same. You can not say: “J-6 is good and Mig-19 is not good.”
You have read USAF opinion. Interested is also quoted statement that russian version needs less maintenence than chinesse J-6.
If I had to choose I would chose J-6 because it is manufactured in later years, but basically it is the same aircraft with very high climb and acceleration and high maneuverability.
That is why the USAF have such opinion of it.
firebarNo point, but a comma, the sentence did not end here.
I showed this by dots correctly. 😉
Second time the same mistake by you.underrated and very tough opponent are the main characteristica of “MiG-19” shown by my quoting too.
I just did, to show you, I have that book too. :
Never mind dots and commas. What is important is opinion of USAF about Mig-19. And opinion of best USAF aces. Pakistani pilots also have very high opinion of it.
That is not unexpected. Aerodynamic characteristics of Mig-19 are excellent. Not only T/W and W/S. Look at lift coeficient.
firebarAfter all, we know very well that Israeli fighter planes were shot down in 1973. Any list which isn’t aiming only to the Lebanon war is useless for me. You keep claiming that the IAF hides all or most of its losses, while in fact the opposite is correct.
As for names of Israeli pilots, they are naturally largely unknown. Only a few names are known, of those who already retired, those who got to senior ranks or names mentioned in foreign publications.
How can you say that they are, naturally, largely unknown. They are completelly unknown.
Nobody knows, outside IAF of course, who are Israel’s best scoring pilots in any war. I am talking of pilots who are not retired.
We all know best pilots of USAF, US Navy, RAF, Argentina, even Vietnamese pilots, and their scoring.
And you say, Israeli pilots are naturally unknown. When Israel hide them and their kills from public, how can you expect from anybody to believe officialy stated numbers of lost aircraft ?
When we saw the best Israeli pilots names, pictures, their kills etc that would be different story.
Then it would be like in democratic states.
firebarNewer J-6 versions had the WP-6A engine which is nearly 40kn compared to the 32kn of the previous engine version. The J-6I which had this engine also had an increased wing area. So you’re saying the engines are only the same is not correct. The increased wing area and the more powerful engine was there to compensate for the increased weight of the Q-5 Fantan, and so in the process of standardization, the same improvements are applied to its J-6 siblings.
It is very important to know this:
Standard J-6, which was used by Vietnamese, Arabs and Pakistanis in wars was aircraft with standard engines: 3250 kg max static thrust each.
Wing span is also standard: 9 m.
Normal T.O. weight also 7560 kg. All of this exactly like Mig-19.
American and Israeli pilots have experience with that version.
Q-5 Fantan is completely different aircraft with more thrust, weight and span. But we talk here about standard fighter used in wars.
firebar“Ritchie regards the MiG-19 as underrated; …. the MiG-19 to be a very tough opponent, ….”
Nothing more and nothing less. 😉
You did not quote it correctly.
If you have the book you will see this, page 111:
“Ritchie regards the Mig-19 underrated.
Current USAF opinion still considers the Mig-19 to be a very tough opponent.”
It is USAF opinion. And its pilots have experiece with it.
Ritchie, USAF 5 kill ace, also, thinks that Mig-19 is underrated.
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