firebarNo, he said that there was one kill by an F-14, and it was with an AIM-9 (the helicopter). False.
In Iraq, it was all what the much publicised F-14 achieved.
No wander that the Phoenix was retired in 2004 and the F-14 in 2006.
firebarWhat? The F-14 couldn’t possibly carry a Phoenix to Mach 2. 😉
Of course it could not.
The F-14A and D manuals say that 1.9 Mach is the max possible speed in level flight.
Also, the F-14D pilot report, published in Aviation Week, say: the max speed is 1.88 Mach.
Note that in shallow dive it could attain 2.3 Mach limit of its aluminium structure.
But in level flight, its relatively high by-pass engines could not attain the thrust needed for Mach 2.
The high by-pass engines are not a good solution for supersonic flight.
It is basics in jet engines theory.
firebarCorrect, but your original statements were all involving overflights with impunity. Running a recce MiG-25 up the East/West German border and clipping the border buffer zone is hardly an overflight with impunity. Running a MiG-25 out of the Baltic over Denmark and down into West Germany would be classed as a deep and direct overflight.
TJ
I never mentioned deep overflights. These were probably overflights like those over Israel.
firebarWhat was the range of the Mig-23 when the F-14 fired at it? The reason the F-14s didn’t get kills in Iraq had more to do with where they were flying at, than their inability to shoot down other planes. Whenever Iraqis got painted by F-14 radars, they’d fly away, as they respected them based upon their experience with the Iranians.
Did you ever ask yourself why AIM-9, AIM-7 and AIM-120 all have achieved kills in Iraq, except Phoenix.
firebarI didn’t see any of the claims that you’re making in that article other than-
– the Mig 25 is the best tactical reconnaissance plane.
The american experts, after examination in Japan, said:
“We thought that it was a damned good airplane, and that is what it turned out to be.”
Source: “Mig Pilot”
there was no mention of advanced digital computers, Mach 7 missiles, extraordinary manuerability, etc…
It has extraordinary maneuverability compared to other Mach 3 airplanes.
Not compared to Mig-29, of course.
What other Mach 3 aircraft can do Immelmans, loops, fast dived, split-s, etc,etc ?
What is more remarkable, all this is offered to civilians, with no flight experiences.!!!
That shows that the Mig-25 is very,very safe aircraft, doing all these maneuvers.
That is something not to be found in any western Mach 3 aircraft for long, long time.
firebarYes. Or he is making the data fit his theory. Or your uncited source.
You do not believe US general Keegan when he say that MIG-25 caused the Americans to deny themself vast amounts of intelilgence data ?
I thought that you have recognized the source.
It is “famous” MIG PILOT by John Barron.
You can’t even spin your fiction with any accuracy. The F-14 has killed five aircraft in USN service, all of them Russian-made.
It killed Libyan severely downgraded Mig-23 and SU-22, using all aspect AIM-9L.
Imagine its encounter with fully equiped, standard russian MiG-23 ML, armed with R-24 and R-60M. It would be massacre at the Tomcats side.
As for Mig-25, the Tomcats pilots would not know what happened. The outcome would be lightning fast. Like bolt from the blue.
Just like its encounter with F-18 in Iraq.
The data released shows that the launches took place with around 35 miles separation between launcher and target. The 100 mile figure comes from people speculating about the maximum range capability of the system, which had not yet been tested to design range. But the seven test launches have been verified in multiple sources. Where is your confusion this time.
You are correct, but note that these data about 7 test launches, from YF-12,at up to 35 miles, are from relatively new sources. Every source before 90-es cited that the targets were destroyed at over 100 miles. WHY ?
See “Lockheed Blackbirds” by Thornborough, for example.
Prove it. Or admit to being fraudulently deceptive.
I stand to this:
-The AWG-9 of F-14A, in service, had capability to guide 2 Phoenixes at one time, not 6.
-In service, it had less than 10 targets Track-while-Scann capability.
The 24 targets TWS was demonstrated only on ground tests.
-The APG-71, of F-14D, a much better system than AWG-9, had 10 targets TWS, but it was still very primitive compared to Zaslon phased array radar of Mig-31.
firebarWhen flying head on at a target you would suspect a missile launch at 100 miles away will impact at only 25 miles out from the launch aircraft. The displacement from the actual aircraft and its launch point are two very different ideas. For one making some many distinctions in his last post we should assume you knew this.
Of course, but note that many sources say that the targets were destroyed at over 100 miles, etc.
The fact is that we have very little information about these firings, apart from internet informations, and that conclusions about theirs effectiveness should be regarded as highly suspicious.
firebarBelieve me, the USN and Iranian AF F-14s have seen a lot more combat and a lot more flying in service than the MiG-31 has. The AIM-54 has seen a lot more combat than the R-36 (AA-9) has ever seen. What is the combat record of the FOXHOUND? In fact, what was the service history of the MiG-31 in PVO service?:confused::rolleyes:
Seems like an expensive and useless toy to me…
Note that the F-14 was used over Iraq in combat for more that 10 years. There were shootings with Phoenixes, but all missed.
That is the point.
The F-14 did not manage to kill anything with that missile.
On the other hand, the FOXHOUND has such tremendous and unequalled weapons system, that any comparrison with F-14 is meaningless.
Its phased array radar has 1 milisecond scann rate, versus 13 seconds for AWG-9 !!!
Track While Scann sector is 70 x 70 degrees for Mig31 and about 10 x 15degrees for F-14. Difference is too great.
In practice, in service, the F-14 had capability of guiding only 2 Phoenixes at the same time, not 6 as we believed earlier because of propaganda stories.
The tests are one and the practice is another issue.
firebarFirebar, why do you keep on insisting that the Mig-25/31 has the speed and range of the Blackbird. I guess you cannot face the countless facts and world records the SR-71 has set and will never be satisfied.
When you say ‘Blackbird range’ you have to differentiate between SR-71 and A-12 or YF-12.
Their fuel load was very different. The SR-71 had about 5000 km max range and other two versions about 3000 km.
When you speak about speed, you must bear in mind these facts:
1.-When the YF-12 hold speed record of 3.13 Mach (2070 mph), the Mig -25 has been flying over Israel, in full service condition, at 3.2 Mach. (that is ,more than the official record set by YF-12).
2.-The Mig-25 is much faster than YF-12 in closed circuits:
-Over 500 km closed circuit, with 2 t payload: MiG-25 : 2980 km/h,
YF-12 : 2644 km/h.
-Over 1000 km closed circuit, with 2 t payload: MiG-25 : 2920 km/h,
YF-12 : 2718 km/h.
You can see that it was very significant difference.
It has to be noted, also, that the SR-71, in 1976, took record over 1000 km closed circuit, at 3366 km/h, but only with 1 t payload.
The speed record with 2 t payload, over that distance, still holds MiG-25.
All these figures clearly show the Mig-25s speed capabilities.
Oh yeah, the YF-12 has carried and launched missiles while cruising at Mach 3, a speed the Mig-25 can only desperately achieve. Please, the facts speak for themselves and no account by any person can change them-you can’t argue the numbers.
You forgot that the YF-12 launched missiles only in tests, whose effectiveness were highly suspicious.
Some sources say that it hit targets more than 100 miles away. The other sources say that the max target ranges were at about 25 miles !!!
It is obvious that these are only unverified stories.
And also, you can not compare experimental undeveloped interceptor with the one which was built in 1200 examples, and which has unrivalled reliability record.
More than 90% of service Mig-25s were flyable at any time !!!
For Mach 3 a/c, it is extraordinary figure.
firebarIsrael has hit the Foxbat with Hawks.
At what height !!!
The Israeli pilot said:
“If we had been flying the Foxbat nothing would have touched us.”
firebarThere is no evidence that the Phoenix was used by Iranians:
firebarFirebar, if you don’t have the facts about the F-14 combat record with both the USN and the Iranians as well as the use of Phoenix then please don’t post. Your starting to look foolish.
If in your eyes the MiG-25 was the greatest thing since the aerofoil, thats great, but don’t try and make the whole world believe it.
Quite a few folks on the Tomcat Forum have had a good laugh at some of the stuff you’ve wrote.
The fact is that the Tomcats did nothing in IRAQ, for more that 10 years, where the targets were realy very easy to destroy, without AWACS and other support and logistics on Iraqi side, which americans had. Not to mention great numerical superiority.
Besides of two Migs-25, which were understandably too difficult targets, there were also Phoenix shooting at Mig-23, and at MI-8 helicopter.
All were missed. These are facts.
There was, in fact one F-14 kill. It was MI-8 helicopter when AIM-9 was used.
And that is it.
Leave alone fictions about Iranian Phoenix kill. This is hoax.
Both Tomcats and Phoenixes were expensive toys, only. They were highly valued only because of many propaganda stories and fictions.
firebarBut you are failing to understand the ramifications of such actions. Even before the advent of the recce MiG-25 in service it was realised by the UK/US that their deep overflights could be misinterpeted. Both sides realised that such a direct and provacative action would have consequences.
There was a whole world of difference in both sides running direct overflights of non-NATO countries ie Soviets over Israel and U.S. over North Korea etc. The Soviets running flights over NATO territory would have given the green light for the U.S. to recommence direct overflights of Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact. It would have had a tit-for-tat response and gone up the political ladder. TJ
After downing of U-2 in 1960, it was very sensitive to execute overflights, both over Russia and over Nato countries, but there were certainly some provocation flights. There were several West reconnaissance a/c shot down over russian teritorial waters , after 1960, RB-57G, RB-47, etc.
firebarPlease keep in mind my friend that with the end of the Cold War, the Russians have admitted that many of the suspected over flights of NATO countries (and Israel) at that time were performed by the Tupolev Tu-123 ‘Yastreb’ long-range, high-altitude supersonic strategic reconnaissance drone. So the ‘Foxbat’ can not take all the credit!
Heres some info on the ‘Yastreb’
introduced in 1964
Specifications
General characteristics
Crew: None
Length: 27.84 m (91 ft 4 in)
Wingspan: 8.41 m (27 ft 7 in)
Height: 4.78 m (15 ft 8 in)
Empty weight: 11,450 kg (25,250 lb)
Gross weight: 35,610 kg (78,520 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × Tumansky KR-15, 98.1 kN (22,046 lb) thrustPerformance
Maximum speed: 2,700 km/h (1,675 mph)
Range: 3,200 km (2,000 miles)
Service ceiling: 22,800 m (74,800 ft)
Actually it has over 3 Mach max speed. It is used along with Mig-25, of course, where longer range was needed.
firebarFor those who did not pay attention to my earlier post, regarding what Israeli pilot said about MiG-25 after 1982 war.
Pay attention now:
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