firebarAs for the Phoenix Missile being ineffective against the MiG-25 -baloney! The Iranian AF shot down many Iraqi MiG-25’s and a Tu-22B Blinder supersonic from a distance of seventy miles.
Do not deceive yourself. There is no evidence that Iranians used Phoenix. These are only fairey tales.
As American use of this missile, you can see that they tried to shoot down Iraqi Mig-23, but it was also a failure. A helicopter Mi-8 also escaped.
Besides launches toward two Mig-25’s, these were only known use of AIM-54.
All were missed and that was the reason why this missile was declared totaly unuseful and was prematurely retired in 2004.
Do not tell me stories about what Iranians did with it. The americans did nothing.
The lack of look down shoot down capability is what is displayed here.
Note that Mig-25PD, from 1978, had pulse dopler radar.
firebarIt has nothing to do with who had a better air defence system. It had to do with the fact that nobody in NATO or the Warsaw Pact wanted to make a misinterpretation or miscalculation. Both sides realised that by the 1960s overflights could be misinterpretated as an attack. The aircraft carrying the recce package might as well be carrying a munition. Think nuclear package? The Cold War could have run hot at anytime with such direct and deep overflights as you suggest was happening. Both sides recognised this and conducted periphery intelligence collection using slant sensors. There was absolutely no need for either side to fly deep and provocative recce missions into each others territory. The political and military repercussions were simply far too great.
I know that, and I did not say that there were deep Western Europe overflights. But there were surely such flights over West Europe as the flights over Israel.
There is no reason not to be so. But no one side will officialy confirm it, of course.
Western Europe was like a playground to the Soviet and Warsaw Pact intelligence agencies. The free and open societies allowed their intelligence collection teams to freely move about and view military locations. The Soviets even had NATO riddled with spies, mainly West German civilians, passing on everything that landed on their desks. The Soviets even had spies within GCHQ such as Geoffrey Prime and the U.S. military such as John Walker.
All right, but you are certainly aware the fact that the ground spies can not substitute the aerial photos of some military instalation.
Otherwise, the satelites would be unnecessary too.
firebarThe brief Mach 3,2 recorded by radar tracking was a single flight and it was not over Israel. It was a north south run alongside the Suez Canal, which is a distance of ~170 km. All the other runs were recorded with Mach 2,4 to Mach 2,6 depending on the leg of flight. The few runs did give little opportunities to trap that MiGs by F-4s.
Is that so ?
John Barron in his book: ‘Mig Pilot’ , says that the MiG flew many times at over 3 Mach. And the Israelis knew about averflights in advance, and the Phantoms were always ready and in the air.
Note that there were more than 20 overflights.
Didn’t you notice that Indian Air Force states 3.2 Mach for theirs Mig-25 ?
The NATO did field a SAM-belt with Nike Hercules, which was similar in performance to the Wega or SAM-5, when the most advanced SAM in Israeli service was the MIM-23 Hawk, which was similar to the Kub or SAM-6 in the 70s.[/QUOTE]
The Hercules had not nearly similar capabilities as SAM-5. The Russian system had twice effective range.
It is well known that Hercules missile guidance was very easy to jamm, and it did not presented threat to Mig-25, which has very effective jammer.
firebarUh, those figures are painfully irrelevant, as the long-range Mach 3 proving flight demonstrated. Again, can a MiG-25 manage to sustain Mach 3 from Area 51 to Orlando, Florida?
A 40 min at max power over Israel and held teritories.
Lies. If the MiG-25 was the reason then the A-12 would’ve been overflying the USSR as it was in service before the interceptor FOXBAT. And the SENIOR CROWN program ended because of money, not FOXHOUND.
You say that US general Keegan lies ?
As for Foxhount, it is another story. This version of Mig-25 is truly awesome, with no western equivalent. It is a real nightmare for every Blackbird pilot.
firebarFirebar,
The Hindu is not infallible – theres no such thing as an Indian national newspaper.
And the Indian Air Vice Marshal is speaking viz local context, about missiles in service and deployed in IAF theater of ops by Pakistan and PLAAF.
Dont read into absolutes, you will be misled.
Come on.
See yourself:
The Israelis could do nothing, in spite of that every flight has been executed in almost the same time, over known route.
And there were over 20 Israeli overflights.
They later downed a few Syrian MiG-25s but only at lower altitudes.
See what Israeli pilots say about MiG-25 after 1982 war:
firebarMaybe it can but it arrives back at base with two wrecked engines!
The OKB MIG chief designer says that it is not true.
The MiG-25 can not land without engines running normaly. It is not Mig-21.
firebarFinally neither the Mig25 or Mig31 ever stopped or even deterred the SR71 from doing what it wanted.
Is that so?
firebarFor example the radar wasn’t just behind the state of the art it was very primative (even had valve technology). On the other hand its raw power would of been handy to burn through heavy ECM something that would of worried the Soviets.
The valve radar technology was used because of its resistance to EMP. All west airborne radars are susceptible to this.
Second, it is not only raw power but, you probably did not know this, its radar work in 2 different frequencies, which makes a jamming almost impossible. A feature not found in any west airborne radar.
A hardly primitive feature.
You keep coming back to its amazing manouvreability at Mach 3, frankly this shows you have no understanding of basic aerodynamics. At high altitude and Mach no aircraft can fling it around the sky, the most that it could do in the thin air is to change its heading.
Did I ever say that it can do all these maneuvers at Mach 3 !!!
Read more carefuly what I say.
Finally neither the Mig25 or Mig31 ever stopped or even deterred the SR71 from doing what it wanted. It was an aircraft that operated at Mach 3 for sustained periods. Off Russia SR71’s would operate a race track up and down the border over the sea passing by Sweden.
You forgot that the MiG-25P was designed to down Blackbird.
Read what American general Keegan said about Mig-25’s denial role:
firebarI wonder how fast a Mig-25 could fly from LA to New York(SR-71 -68 minutes), or New York to London (SR-71 -1:54).
The MiG can fly 40 min at max power, but it is limited by fuel quantity, about 15 tonnes against 38 tonnes of SR-71.
firebarWrong. They did a long-range proving sortie on 14 August 1965 which had a leg from Groom to Orlando, FL, and then back to Groom following an IFR hookup. Can the MiG-25 manage Mach 3.1 over that distance?
Check it better.
The A-12 had about 25 tonnes of fuel. Compare this with 38 tonnes of SR-71.
firebarUmm, no. The Mig-25 isn’t faster than the YF-12. The YF-12 reached 2070 mph officially, and the Foxbat 1856 mph. Just get over it. There is a reason why the Blackbird family looks different and has radical, ramjet-like engines. The Foxbat is a fine aircraft, no doubt, but really just a fighter-interceptor with normal, but huge, engines that can go extremely fast in bursts. The two aircraft are in totally different classes.
They are in totaly different classes, indeed.
First, the Mig-25 entered service in very large numbers.
Second, when the YF-12 hold speed record of 3.13 Mach (2070 mph), the Mig -25 has been flying over Israel, in full service condition, at 3.2 Mach.
Third, the Mig-25 is mush faster than YF-12 in closed circuits:
-Over 500 km closed circuit, with 2 t payload: MiG-25 : 2980 km/h, YF-12 : 2644 km/h.
-Over 1000 km closed circuit, with 2 t payload: MiG-25 : 2920 km/h,
YF-12 : 2718 km/h.
It is a very significant difference.
It is curious that the SR-71, in 1976, took record over 1000 km closed circuit, with 3366 km/h, but only with 1 t payload.
The speed record with 2 t payload, over that distance, still holds MiG-25.
Fourth, the 40 minutes at max power can hardly be refered as a burst:
You know only about first version.
firebar[QUOTE]
Gervasi served in intelligence from 1964 to 1970. Just because he served in intelligence doesn’t give him automatic access to every part of the intelligence system. I can speak from personal experience as I served in intel for 22 years.
All right, but you have to agree that he had much more data about Mig-25 overflights than somebody which had no access to such sensitive data.
In its book he speaks about american weapons very affirmatively.
Firebar,
Where in that link does the Indian Air Force say anything about direct overflights of NATO territory with MiG-25s?
The Indian national newspaper say:
http://www.hindu.com/2006/04/07/stories/2006040704221500.htm
Also Indian Air Force Vice Marshal speaks about Mig-25 abilities to evade missiles:
http://www.hindu.com/2006/05/02/stories/2006050201992000.htm
Also, just think: Did Western Europeans have a better Air Defence system than Israelis?
See also this: (Sgarlato- Soviet air force):
firebarIt wasn’t an inability to develop/deploy, as much as an unwillingness to. It all comes down to what the priority and requirement is, not what the absolute engineering limitations are.
Don’t give me that.
Even preparing hydraulic oil before each flight, in Blackbird, took more than one hour !!! Totaly unacceptable for any interceptor.
The refuelling also took more than one hour. It was very sensitive and time demanding a/c.
firebar[QUOTE]
Phoenix was retired because it was an expensive system.
Expensive and totaly unuseful, unable to down anything, even MI-8 transport helicopter, which was missed.
As for Gulf War 1 the Tomcats much to the pilots frustration were not tasked over Iraqi airspace. The E3 AWACS worked best with F15’s plus a fair degree of interservice rivalry meant the airforce Sentrys preferred tasking airforce fighters to targets.
Not quite.
What are you talking about? That US Navy had not theirs own AWACS? Did you hear of E-2C?
That is not excuse for disastrous performance of AIM-54 missile, in optimum enviroment.
The Tomcats tried to down Mig-23 also, but with no success, of course.
firebarThe Mig-25 was only developed because the Soviet Union thought that the XB-70 was going to be fielded.
It is designed to counter Blackbird also, not only XB-70.
When Victor Belenko defected with a Mig 25 to Japan Western airforces were shocked with how primative it was. In effect it was a fighter designed to intercept a Mach 3 bomber with the help of GCI and then burn through heavy jamming with its powerful but crude radar to get a missile off.
You are obviously misled by some cheap literature.
In fact, it was discovered, after Japan landing, that it is very advanced interceptor with no western equivalent, in terms of propulsion, weapon systems and performance.
It had the most powerful radar in the world, which no one could jamm, it has very high performance missiles, which have speed of more than 7 Mach after launch (combined missile and a/c speed), so that they have to be made of titanium, has very advanced digital computer, and able to execute all fighter maneuvers (which no other Mach 3 a/c can do), and most important of all, it denied Americans from using SR-71 in its intended role (to spy russians), as the American general Keegan say.
So, it was the SR-71 which, because of Mig-25, never fulfiled its intended role.
And because of extraordinary Mig-31, it was retired from service entirely.
Look what American general Keegan said:
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