Treasure.
Hoffman, as Hoffman that makes bearings, don’t exist anymore. Somebody will be very thankful for it, in time. Give it a bit of grease and wrap it up. I am analysing bearings from 1930’s aero engines and somebody threw them all out in the 1960’s. Very expensive to make today. Also most of them are specials, so you will find a catalogue reference confirming it is a ‘Special’ but no information on what makes it different to a standard bearing, for which dimensions are available. Sometimes the inner race is imperial and the outer race is metric. Sometimes the outer race has a few thou shaved off to fit a particular casing configuration. Sometimes the metallurgy is different. So if you have a bearing that can confirm this type of information, with a serial that concurs with a parts list, in a packet that confirms with a parts schedule, you have a library in your hands.
‘Every time an old man dies a library burns’
‘Every time a bearing gets thrown out a library burns.’
If bearings are a burden I will adopt them, grease them up, place them on little velvet cushions, and pass the information on.
Ed
Matt, what a brilliant bit of work with google Earth. It certainly gives you a clear perspective on what might have been the planning for the attack, and what both the AA gunners and pilots would have to contend with.
For the pilots, a logical attack would be to come from the west, low in the river valley, with the afternoon sun shining on the face of the power station. The terrain seems to be too difficult to to mount an attack from any other direction. The logical, if predictable, gun emplacements would look down the river valley, easy for gunners to get to from the shelter of the building, where your lunch room would be. The historical photo shows these afternoon conditions, sun in the face of the gunners. Coming out of a low, westerly attack, you would need to sweep to the right into rising terrain, very difficult, exposing your full underside to likely gun emplacements.
Perhaps they came from the north : there seem to be clouds of dust in front and behind the long dimension of the station, and smoke on the hillside behind consistent with this. Perhaps a bunt from the north, swooping down and up, with a misjudgement of height or damage to the aircraft in the bunt down causing it to hit the roof.
I concur that it is a fuel tank, but don’t recognise it. There would have to be a spray of metal from the disintegrating aircraft in the hill behind the station, no doubt over the years working its way down to the river below. Perhaps a bit of work with a metal detector might come up with small pieces that haven’t been scrapped.
AM, PM sent, EM !
EM PM ag’in !
Nice work and generous descriptions of the process, thank you.
AM, PM sent, EM !
Swap to good home
Stan, this is a prewar, no radium, civilian Smith & Sons set that I would prefer stays together and goes into a prewar type flyer.
The altimeter needle has come loose and would need attention, the others are in good condition. Happy to swap if you PM.
Ed
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How to
Ian, can you explain the use of the little black robots and the full process, please?
1. So you have a chart with tables of co-ordinates, or an actual drawing? (How do you create the ordinates – off a real fuselage, with hoop in situ? If in situ, how do you establish a base point to measure from, within the confines of the fuselage?)
2. You use the ordinates to create a drawing on a piece of paper, which is then copied onto clear acetate.
3. You use the clear acetate laid over timber and the black robots to transfer points onto the wood?
4. You use a rubber press to form the hoop over a male former?
Pretend you are talking to a 5 year old and I will get it….:stupid:
Sounds good
I bought a folder of war time AS, ARP, AN and AND specifications and drawings.
I am in the middle of scanning them. I have been wondering what to do with the scanned documents once I have finished.
Image Composite Editor looks fantastic – you need to give me some lessons !
What I do to get a result is painfully photocopy each piece of paper onto a standard paper size, eg A4 or A3. Original documents may be in some old imperial paper size that won’t fit modern scanners. I do this using the paper size control on a modern photocopier at Officeworks. I have tried to employ somebody to do this but in checking the work it is, at best 95% accurate, in other words some pages might be missing, text cut off or crucial information such as amendment notes pasted in are not done, because a hired gun is either not interested or doesn’t realize the importance of context and accuracy. At least this way I become familiar with the content. I am talking about thousands of pages, so I do a few hundred at a time on an odd weekend.
Once all the information is on standard sized paper I hand it over to a gumball chewing adolescent at Officeworks to scan at 40c per page, feeding in the pages while texting away. I put post it notes on a bundle and get them to label the resulting PDF file with the file name on the post it note. So I end up with a memory stick with 250 labelled PDF files that I can then load up into a searchable database. My time is not costed, but the direct costs of paper copying and scanning end up being about $2 per PDF, so $500 down, $2000 for the 1000 CAC Standards. 2K will get me a week or two in Bali, so I don’t want to think too deeply about what I am doing.
I thought about contracting out the scanning and file labeling to India, but I don’t think there would be much of a cost saving, and at least with the Australian system I am keeping an adolescent off the streets and a life of car theft and quality checking each step of the way.
So then I thought this information could be loaded onto the web to allow folks to find material standards, as it is critical to safe flying structures. I thought I could charge them $5 for a download rather than $100, just to generate enough income to pay for web hosting. It will barely pay for itself, unless each download comes with a complimentary serve of Debbie Does Dallas.
So really the whole thing is an act of charity, a Jesus walk with a crown of thorns while getting flogged. I think the main thing is that these Standards do not get lost, as they are the kind of arcana that normal people would think no rational human being is interested in. And they are right ! But for all the irrational folks wanting to turn rusty, flaking scrap metal into beastly devices roaring through the air they are critical.
Now if anybody wants to dump a box of DTD or British Standards (aeronautical) on me I would be happy to do the Jesus walk with the box. I am thinking of lodging the searchable database on silverbiplanes.com under ‘materials and metallurgia’.
British Standards do have an excellent library of historical Standards, but each digital copy is 100 quid or more, depending on your domicile, size of enterprise etc. This pricing is driven by ‘cost recovery’ principles. It means that it is not really used, almost defeating the purpose of holding them. Maybe we should negotiate some deal where these aeronautical standards could be listed and available at a lower price, to drive uptake, while a royalty is paid to the Standard’s office.
This same principle could apply to work scanned by anybody else, but the higher the royalty cost, the lower the use.
My core driver is that information should be shared and ideally free, to support more safe, historical, flying devices in the air.
The reward for this is good karma, a currency that can never be debased.
So karmalong folks !
Beachcomber,
Please, please, please, do NOT throw those papers away.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(PowerandPassion—get in on this discussion!!!
Indeed I concur with my esteemed colleague. All of us would give our eye teeth for material like this, within our field of interest. So I say a little prayer to anybody who, against common sense, keeps this material or passes it on to an archive that allows access. In my turn I have saved boxes and boxes of jet age material when I have stumbled on it, to try and pass on to the future what no doubt will be appreciated by some babe of today.
The technology and cost to rapidly scan this material is making it easier and easier to make the information safe, easily transmittable and replicable. I am in the process of digitizing all the material standards for Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation, which covers off a lot of obscure wartime British DTD standards, RR proprietory alloys, US alloys and French alloys as the Australians had to grapple with everything from Beaufighters to “Harvards” to Mirages.
I must admit it is a pain in the behind, much like photocopying reams of odd shaped paper. The cost of scanning this is also significant, thousands of pages at AUD 0.40 per page, that then has to be labelled. The intention is to lodge this online, to help anybody grappling with material problems in restoration. There is no way you can charge for this and it is pointless to ever expect appreciation commensurate with the effort. But it is a nice thing to do. All that really matters at the end of the day is kindness.
I do hope those documents are saved.
I am also searching for old DTD Standards, a box of yellowing DTD Standards would make my day, please!
All well worth a visit via the Filton RRHT. Nick
Nick, thank you for reporting, Ed
A big thumbs up to the Science Museum!
I must concur that an enquiry launched from the antipodes to the Science Museum was responded to with alacrity, accuracy and accessibility. AAA.
Ed
Gosh that is one big pizza ! No wonder the thing could move through the air. I do love the combination of a biplane with a disgracadio motor grosso stuck to the front. Not until that photo did I really appreciate how many litres that thing would draw.
Surely the dogfights above Greece would have been something to see; less chaotic than the later monoplanes with all their speed and diving surprises and escapes. Men in biplanes seeing each other and using all that wing surface and power to bring awful calculation to bear.
Tonight I drink Vino Rosso to the Falco and the A-74, but upside down so Benito can see me, just to remind him how it all ended…
Dural – Duralumin- Duraluminium was a proprietory description that became a catch all for a number of related alloys, all heat treated. the HT alloys always developed more strength and more dependable strength that cold worked materials, so I understand they were always used in spars and similar structural members.
I would say the HT alloys, while in the soft condition, were easier to work than cold worked materials. Magnesium would become harder and harder as it was worked. Most of the old Magnesium rivets I have seen seem to have got one single, good pounding to form the head.
DTD327 was still a Dural type alloy, in looking through the books this seems to be a RR alloy, RR75, with an exotic touch of Titanium and Nickel, so probably quite a performance improvement, but still requiring heat treatment to develop workability, then strength through age hardening.
In terms of DTD 303 becoming BS L58, this British Standard is given as ‘Cold forged rivets of Aluminium 5% Magnesium alloy’, which I interpret as an Aluminium with 5% Magnesium. It will be interesting to compare this with the original DTD 303 specification, if it can ever be found. Often I find the materials in Standards change even though a later standard cites the original DTD document as its source, perhaps driven by a performance aspect such as ‘cold forging’. For the restorer looking for material substitutions, this is can be an unreliable connection.
I would dearly love to find an old trunk full of original DTD specifications.
Please Santa.
Does anyone know what the C and E statuses were
As aircraft were removed from the flight line due to accidents or servicing, the flight line code was switched. Ie- there would always be Trainers A,B,C,D,E on the flightline, but different aircraft might be used to make up the complement. I have seen this on other status cards for RAAF aircraft used at Flying Schools, where one aircraft might be A, then removed for an engine change, then later E. This code would be prominent on the fuselage.
Spitfire
Attached pics courtesy of Airframe Assemblies show Spitfire rear spar drawing, first issued in 1937 showing the rivet requirements. Pictorially still showing Dural L37, but with a revision note dated 1942 changing things to DTD 303 (Magnesium) or DTD 327 (RR75, an aluminium alloy).
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So here you have official confirmation of the use of magnesium rivets in wartime aluminium aero structures. Chris from AA maintains that in his experience of original Bf.109e structure there was no sign of magnesium rivets, or magnesium sheet material for that matter. Magnesium was a material most familiar to German constructors, yet the hard headed decision to use magnesium rivets seemed to only have been taken by the British in 1942. I wonder if the Germans had switched over by 1944, when things were dire for them. Next time I am near an original ME 262 I will have to take out the car keys and see if I can pick off some rivets…
I can confirm that magnesium rivets were not used in Australian manufacturing, for what ended up being the fourth largest Air Force in the world in 1945.
The use of magnesium rivets did, in fact, provide the electrolytic corrosion protection mooted in previous discussions : the rivets corroded in preference to the aluminium sheets, protecting the larger aero structure. This accident could inform an adaptation of the concept using a single, easily accessible magnesium disc attached to the structure, that could be replaced every 5 years.