powerandpassionThanks
Thanks the non il2 Stormovik footage is mine here’s more
Thank you for sharing the fantastic footage….can I have some Bristol Bulldog please….
powerandpassionGreat film
There is more of John Hewiston’s footage here http://johnguguhewitson.yolasite.com/ Scroll to the bottom of the page. It has loads of info on SAAF pilots.
Alex
What extraordinary footage : great to see the simple human story that could still be today; a table of empty wine bottles, fooling around on bikes and in the Mediterranean surf, just kids really. Interesting how much of the aviation footage shows the pilot decanting fuel from tins, maybe half the time was spent doing this, seeing how happily the empty tins were flung away ! Imagine all the camel trips across the wilderness that got this fuel to forgotten airfields, the wonder of modern technology dependent on the ancient ships of the desert.
It was the first time I have seen Gladiators hand started, a nice sharp Mercury coming to life in short seconds of hand cranking. I have seen Harts hand started and the erk had a stay wire to stop him falling into the prop, you would probably need more care with the Gladiator. I wonder how hard it became once the desert sand got into the cylinders.
The innovation of Dowty shock absorbing wheels make so much sense watching the Galdiator land on a desert airfield – I have just read a description of the nervousness a pilot had in landing a Hart with its fixed undercarriage on uneven ground. The whole Dowty empire was built on one stubborn man taking his wheel design and starting a company based on it, and it makes so much sense watching that Gladiator land. So much innovation and risk taking in transforming the RAF from Bulldogs in 1930 to Spitfires in 1940.
powerandpassionThe secret 3
Smiths must appreciate the compliment paid by all this counterfeiting, and in the interests of extending the compliment I have thought about what could be done about the 60-63 gallon gauges for Hind-Demon that can’t be found. I have a lot of the potentiometer-rheostats that sat on top of the cork float sender, and I am wondering whether these were different for a 37 gallon or 63 gallon arrangement. I am now thinking that all the sender pot-rheostats were the same, which would make sense. The length of the shaft of the sender unit, and the length of the wire arm connecting the cork float would generate a mechanical lever movement that would result in the same movement of the pot-rheo arrangement. If this is true, then the gauge would also be identical in the guts irrespective of 37 -48 – 63 gallon. Therefore, all that would be different is really the face of the gauge. So, in possession of any gauge, it could be turned to any application by careful consideration of the sender geometry, which is what I think happened back then as the Smith fuel sender system was adapted from Hinds to Mosquitos and onwards.
I am thinking more in the sense of putting together an operating system, where the weakest link is the availability of the appropriate gauge face, because unloved senders can be found; worse, if the right gauge is available, the danger that it will irradiate my left kneecap, given its position on the panel.
It is not difficult to laser etch and screen print a gauge face, in fact a good copy is to be admired, for it takes more concentration than the original.
If anyone does turn an Anson into Angelina Jolie they should do a deal though : leave a telltale that will be obvious to all connoisseurs and disciples of the true art : perhaps the secret 3….
powerandpassion467, not that clear cut. I did work in a scrap yard for a while, we got in what we called ‘heavy’ they were round steel rods up to 2 foot thick and they could be 4 foot long, the only way we could process them was to get the oxy set out.
I guess the fair comparison is to read Freddy Spencer Chapman’s “The Jungle is Neutral”, which dealt with survival in the jungles of Malaya of troops who, perhaps months before, were on the streets of the East End, suddenly abandoned in the jungle in 1942. What was self evident to the jungle dweller in terms of survival eluded the lost trooper. Maybe a 23 year old Thai with a blow torch did not know that Bangkok was bombed in WW2. I have to admit, I did not, until now ! I always thought Thailand maintained a precarious neutrality in the war, but Wikipedia has put me right.
What is amazing is the persistence of nitrate based explosives. I guess as a ‘salt’ compound they are too toxic for bacteria to munch through.
My dear brother as an 18 year old once brought home a rusty mortar round dug up from a building site on a former defence range, which flabbergasted me, as a 16 year old. I guess we could have been the news story. Eventually he allowed me to carry it into a Police station for proper disposal, and I still remember the desk sergeant going white and backing away as I brought it in. Lucky I still have my fingers, so I can type in this forum !
powerandpassionThanks for the great explanation Powerandpassion. I understand it now. Sent a PM and yes I have a section of CCF made spare available.
Cheers
Jag,
thanks for your pm, sent email to the contact given. Would love to test some CCF spar material,
P&P
powerandpassionA Std 183 drawings
On many of the Hawker drawings relating to tubes and longerons, the drawings say something like “All squares rolled to A. STD. 183/F” or “A. STD. 183.S” What does this mean?
Thanks
A Standards were an intrinsic part of the Hawker system of production, being standard parts that could be incorporated into different aircraft,
eg A Std 34 – clips, steel, A Std 390 – rivets, pop.
‘A Std 183- square sections from round tube’ refers to a key idea in the Hawker system of construction, which was a fuselage made from round tube with squared ends, joined by fishplates. Originated by Fred Sigrist, A Std 183 parts were used from 1925 – 1945, from Tom**** to Tempests.
A Std 183 features 26 tubular sections of different sizes, identified A- Z.
So 183/F is 1 3/8 OD tube with 1 3/16 X 1 3/16 squared ends
&
183/S is 1 1/2 OD tube with 1 3/8 X 1 3/8 squared ends.
For a copy of A std 183 please pm.
I am looking for Canadian Siskin or Canadian Hurricane spar remnants for metallurgical analysis !
powerandpassion[QUOTEI do remember seeing one hanging on a wall in a workshop on Sydney Road, Brunswick, Victoria, in the early ’80s. I don’t know what happened to it, but I suspect it is still kicking (hanging?) around somewhere. :)[/QUOTE]
Where on Sydney Rd !? Was this Hughes Trading in Coburg or deep in the shopping strip, which is the longest continuous shopping strip in the southern hemisphere. I know, because one night, under the mystical influence of cheap red wine, I , in company , re enacted the chimney sweep scene from Mary Poppins across the roofs of said shopping strip, until brought down by the law. I feel I know the place.
powerandpassionWelcome to Aeroplane World
[QUOTE but this project has turned me into a bit of an aircraft nerd so I am definitely interested! 🙂
[/QUOTE]
Diver Caroline,
You’re welcome, and welcome to Planet Plane:cool:
All these things in the end are stories about people, who flew what you have uncovered and why. That’s when it becomes really interesting. This month Mr. Putin rolled tanks into the Crimea and I have an odd feeling that not much will be done about it at all. The last time I read about something like this Mr Schickelgruber rolled tanks into Czechoslovakia, and not much was done about it at all. It is easy to criticize the appeasment of the 1930’s, harder to ask what you are going to do about Mr Putin today.
A piece of American carburetor is brought out from the deep thousands of miles from where it was manufactured. Why was it there ? The more you dig the more threads appear that link you to the present. So far, in the Security Council, the Chinese delegate looks very uncomfortable about Mr Putin. Conflicted emotions. It won’t take long to twig that the way to take Taiwan is just to roll amphibious landing craft onto a Taiwanese beach. Should have done it during the Olympics, too. Classy. What we really need is a miffed Paraolympian to run down Mr Putin in their wheelchair, give him a flogging for being such dick and vomiting the 20th century back into the 21st.
Aircraft I certainly find to be amazing mechanisms, products of astonishing ingenuity. Historical military aircraft are also levers into those parts of the human condition that are most interesting, sometimes simply for tragedy. Find the story behind the carburetor and you will find a very interesting story, no doubt.
These kinds of deep and meaningful conversations you will find in Melbourne, Diver Caroline, instead of hanging around dudes in Darwin whose idea of fun is to run around in undies chasing cane toads with golf clubs. Now that you have the plane bug you can pioneer Aviation archaeology in Victoria. No one is doing anything about it, the water is clear, the things that bite do so once and for ever and there are a lot of projects that would benefit from a trained approach. THIS IS WHY THE CARBY HAS RISEN !
powerandpassionAs part of the investigation in this thread :
DTD 54a – 65 Tons proof stress – highest strength, most difficult mechanical manipulation (roll forming)
DTD 99 – 55 Tons proof stress – near highest strength, easier to roll form
DTD 100 – 40 Tons proof stress – high strength, easiest to mechanically form.In the absence of the documents DTD 54a, 99 & 100, it is hypothesised that they dealt with mechanical failure testing (bend test) and ideally, but unlikely, heat treatment protocols.
My mind has been expanded by FT Hill, ‘Materials of Aircraft Construction’ 1942 edition, ex libris Moorabbin Air Museum, that :
DTD 54a = British Standard S88 (1936)
DTD 99 = British Standard S87 (1936)
DTD 100 = British Standard S86 (1936)
No doubt the predominant materials of the interwar ‘silver biplane’ era, I suspect the momentum of their use carried them into formalization as British Standards in 1935 while in the same year key theorists like Pollard were publishing articles abandoning steel strip construction and embracing stressed skin aluminium design.
The MacRobertson London Melbourne Air Race of 1934, when the winning DeHavilland design was closely dogged by the Douglas DC-2, probably crystallised the challenge to British design thought. The Americans had the hydro electricity of Canada energizing the furnaces of Alcan and laying at the feet of their industry a flood of vastly improved aluminium, and the dream of trans continental flight was carried on the wings of extraordinary designs like the DC 2. It would have been a frantic moment in the British aircraft industry, it’s morale challenged by the Depression, it’s pride less assured, but what a time for risk taking : Airspeed, DeHavilland Albatross, Mitchell, Bristol’s Britain First.
powerandpassionPD 9
Hi Pete, ah yes, it can’t be a “S” 🙂 Sorry, I’m a bit slow on replying – we’ve been having power issues in Darwin today!
You’re bang on; the Venturi size is 3 1/8″. Am I right in understanding now that that’s what the “12” signifies in the model code?
I’ve wondered too if it is instead an automotive or marine engine part. My gut feeling was that it was aircraft, largely due to size and that it seemed too pretty [for want of a better word] to be anything else – looking at the use of safety wire to secure bolts etc. We have actually found some auto parts – including some Australian version universal carrier parts – dumped nearby, but they used plain old Ford V8 engines. It could very possibly a larger vehicle or tank though; I don’t know much about tank engines – I’ll definitely look into that. Thank you 🙂
Diver Caroline,
With great assistance from enginehistory.org, it looks like a PD9 Bendix Stromberg carburettor design, based on the venturi size, which should be 3 and 3/16 inches, suitable for engines of 900 – 1900 sq inch capacity. Some photos attached of the design ( B&W for Wright R 1300 engine and colour cutaway for Pratt and Whitney R1830, although this is a larger capacity carb, it illustrates the position on the engine and 45 degree flange connection)
The PD 9 design is listed as suitable for T-28 Trojan (Vietnam War era) a Sikorsky helicopter (Korean War era) and a Chance Vought SB2U Vindicator, a late 30’s carrier based aircraft that fought at the Battle of Midway in early 1942, but was withdrawn from service soon after.
The SB2U had a Pratt & Whitney Junior Wasp or R1535 engine, a precursor to the far more common P&W Twin Wasp or R1830 engine, which was in everything. So it looks like some sort of carburettor associated with the Wasp engine family.
I have found references to a Bendix NA 8 & NA 9 carb used in the common R 1340 Single Wasp engine, so the NA 12 implies something larger than the Single Wasp.
I have found references to a PD 12 (larger venturi) used on Twin Wasp, so the PD 9 is smaller than 1830 but larger than 1340, ergo 1535.
As an unusual and obsolete carrier based fighter there may have been one or two still on charge with the US Navy during the Guadalcanal and Coral Sea battles, perhaps as a communications hack. It would be interesting to see if there are any records of a crash of a Vindicator flying off a visiting carrier onto a Darwin aerodrome. Given the way the carby has been ripped from its mounting on the engine, it suggests a tumbling engine, leading to the thought of a fairly catastrophic landing accident followed by a fire that was sufficient to melt the aluminium while the carby was upside down, dripping molten metal like a candle dripping wax. I don’t think this was a crash into water. Maybe this was an old plane siting in a corner that was just burnt and crushed by a recovery crew with nothing much to do. The proximity of other dumped material to the find suggests a pattern of dumping in the area, again suggesting a ‘clean up’ disposed off in a habitual way.
The rust on the carby suggests it was mixed with ferrous material, and the aluminium acted as a cathode to the sacrificial anode of ferrous material over time, whether tubular farmework of the engine mount or other material. It would be difficult for a magnetometer to get a clear signal from small, dispersed oxidised tube remnants.
I tried to wade out to the Catalinas last century, sunk nearly up to my armpits in the mud, and only just made it back to the pub.:very_drunk:
You need to leave that land of mud, cyclones and thongs and come back to the great white sharks of the south and dive on some real aeroplanes. We need smart cookies like you to kick some goals in aviation archaeology, find some MIAs in Port Phillip and be able to drink a decent coffee. We even have a magnetometer for you.
powerandpassionupside down
[B]Possible further info – Don’t know if these provide any clues?
Diver Caroline,
Downdraft carbs were used on Hall Scott Defenders, V12 marine engines used in patrol & recovery boats, although Defenders used a brass Zenith carb. Some aviation engines were adapted for marine use.
In thinking through your pictures the flange connecting the engine looks like it has been ripped out, the butterfly valve torn out via the linkage and, at that point, the aluminium has melted in a direction implying the carb was upside down when it was melting. So it may be a component from a crashed US aircraft that certainly disintergrated to the extent of an engine being ripped from its mountings, with a detached carburettor lying upside down in a fuel fire, then scooped up and dumped at sea. Given the north is and was covered in wrecks it might be reasonable to assume that the main Darwin aerodrome was being cleared up of a US aircraft that failed to make a landing. Maybe records of such crashes of US aircraft on the main aerodrome might tighten up a dataset of potential aircraft, and it would be archaelogical serendipity if your carby only fitted one peculiar aircraft that also crashed in the described manner.
Remembering the awful mud in Darwin Harbour when I tried to wade out to the Catalina wrecks a long, long time ago, I wonder if there is more of your aircraft UNDER the location of your carb find. Say Darwin mud has a specific gravity of 2,000 kg/m3 odd and aluminium is 2500 kg/m3 while steel is 7,500 kg/m3. So when they dumped the remains overboard the steel would have travelled down into the mud while the aluminium may have gone a little way, then in time been forced up as a lighter substance. This is the mechanism that drives long buried tyres to drive to the surface of landfills. To test this hypothesis run a magnetometer over the zone and see if you get a ping. It may be UXO too, so think it through before running a suction dredge.
I will not attach a photo of myself, just close your eyes and think of Daniel Craig in James Bond and I will likewise think of the Bikini babe with big knife coming out of the water in Dr No and we will both be happier ! When you come down to Melbourne and do some real diving in Port Phillip Bay on the dozens of unsurveyed aircraft wrecks with MIAs then we can arrange a hot date, and if I don’t put oxygen in your tanks then I can line up 28 other aviation tragics for you that might !! :angel:
powerandpassionIn respect of the manufacturing of CuPb bearings for RR Kestrel engines the following description from 1938 seems to match well :
Handbook of Aeronautics Vol II Aero Engines Design and Practice Third Edit 1938
Lead Bronze Bearings pg 26
The development of greater power and higher speed in modern internal combustion engines has brought about a demand for bearing metals capable of working at higher temperatures and pressures than is possible with the usual type of white metal bearings.
To meet this demand, bearings lined with an aggregate consisting of lead dispersed in a matrix of copper or copper alloy are being developed.
Bearing shells should be of mild or medium steel or 5% nickel steel. In general alloy steels are not suitable as the cooling from the high working temperatures upsets the heat treatment of the steel.
The bearing shells are generally lined with the lead bronze by means of the centrifuging process. In this process the shell is manufactured with one blank end and left a rough machine finish. The shell is then mounted on a spindle either vertically, in which case the top is left open, or horizontally with the open end sealed by welding and rotated in a furnace, enough lead and copper in the correct proportions having been put into the shell to make a lining about one eighth inch thick. The temperature to which the shell is heated is in the order of 1050 degrees C and the speed of rotation is dependent upon the diameter of the shell, but for a normal size, say 3 inches in diameter, the rate is 800 RPM.
A small amount of phosphorus , about 0.05%, is generally added to the lead copper content and this acts as a deoxidant, having a cleansing affect on the metal and interface.
After reaching the desired temperature the shell is cooled either by air blast or oil quenching whilst the same rotational rate is maintained. The rate of cooling is important as it governs the nature of the dispersion of lead in the copper. These metals do not alloy, but merely mix and they segregate with slow static cooling. It is therefore important that the cooling conditions be such that the maximum amount of dispersion of lead in copper is obtained.
Adhesion between the lead bronze lining and the steel shell can be mechanical, by suitable milling of the surface of the shell, but it is preferable to leave the shell a rough machine finish. Satisfactory adhesion is obtained by the use of this method and the tensile strength of the interface is greater than that of the lead bronze mixture itself.
The softening point of lead bronze depends on the melting point of lead, namely 327 degrees C. The softening point of white metal depends on the melting point of tin, namely 232 degrees C.
The use of centrifugal casting makes obvious a further rationale for the three piece RR Kestrel conrod design, although not for the later Merlin design with removable bearing shells.
The comment on use of mild or medium rather than alloy steel bearing shells due to engine (?) working temperatures affecting heat treatment challenges my earlier comments on the use of Nickel Chrome steel for bearing shells, although AP 1416 D Vol III Kestrel V Schedule of Spare Parts lists the appropriate parts (and conrods) as NS under material, I assume Nickel Steel.
WH Hatfield ( in charge of Firth Vickers research laboratories) Ferrous Metallurgy in Aeronautics from Aircraft Engineering magazine May 1935 pg 113 provides in great detail a list of steels and applications in the aviation of the day.
In this there is detailed only one 5% nickel type composition, being described in British Standards S4 (sheet), S 67 (billets & forgings) and S 83A (billets & forgings), all of identical chemical composition, moderate weldability.
Tempering on this composition is at 570 degrees C, I am not sure what temperature an engine can get to in the crankcase, but I guess this refers to the comment about not using heat treatable alloys in this application due to engine working temperatures.
Further appendices in Aircraft Engineering by the same author June 1935 parts are listed with suggested steel types.
Con rods : S11, S65, S81 (all NiCr)
Main bearing caps, covers & housings : S.70 (Med Carbon), S 11
I figure answering this question on what the bearing shells are made out of is best progressed by sampling the material.
I am getting so drawn into this that the only way to extinguish this out of my mind is to make up some bearings……
powerandpassionCarbs and Cardys
Hiya,
I’m an archaeologist working on a range of military aircraft parts that were dumped in Darwin Harbour at the end of the war.
Gosh ! I wish you had posted a photo of yourself next to the crunched up old carb ! We spend years in cardigans poring over parts lists for carburettors dreaming about a female that wants to walk in the door and talk subtleties on carb intake flanges. Right now literally hundreds of men are flicking through their book shelves to sort this one out !
:love-struck::love-struck::love-struck:
Doesn’t look like Rolls Royce Merlin ( Spitfire, Mustang, Mosquito ) in its US (Stromberg PD 18A1 on Packard built V-1650-3 & 7) or English built version as the flanges are parallel.
Maybe it is from a radial engine, Pratt & Whitney Wasp ( Wirraway, C-47, Dakota) or Wright Cyclone (includes use in tanks)
powerandpassionEvidence in camera
Ha!
Yes, spade grips as well…
Hows it put on then, a separate sheet thats cut and glued on or sprayed/dipped?
Have a look here for vulcanite replacement on Leica cameras :
http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Leica/vulcanite.html
Lucky for you in the UK, but long waiting list ! I have always wondered about this material.
I have a 1935 BSA spade grip in hand ( Hawker Demon), after reading about the Leica approach I can now see that the spade grip vulcanite portion has been painstakingly covered with 1-2 inch rectangular patches worked around the grip body, seam meeting on the underside. From the Leica story it appears that each strip of Vulcanite was hand worked around the grip body and merged into the next while still hot and ‘plastic’.
If you manage to convince this gentleman to make up a ‘spadegrip’ texture pattern and have a go at your grip, please let me know, so I can have mine recovered. Where the vulcanite has come away from my grip I can see that BSA has scored the steel to allow better grip. I also think where it has come away is consistent with the grip was held…much like the steering wheel on my car it tells a story of countless hours of mind numbing patrol work…I wonder if I should cover this up ?
powerandpassionProp
But the reduction-ratio is only a factor of the ratio of the teeth on the two gears; I am sure I could get exactly the same reduction-ratio with much smaller gears. The torque multiplication also is only a factor of the ratio of the teeth on the two gears.
Splines and gears are different but in transmitting the power, in different ways, they do exactly the same job. I suppose the main difference between them is the area of contact; in a spline (theoretically) the whole contact surface acts at the same time, in a gear only a tiny area of one tooth has to transmit the entire power of the engine.
There is a big prop cantilevered off the reduction gear shaft, so it is more than just transmitting torque force, deeper in the guts of the engine the splines off the crankshaft are more supported. The reduction gear case, bearings & gear not only support the prop but drag the rest of the engine and aeroplane after the prop.
The centrifugal reaction forces of the prop are enough to spin the aeroplane around its axis, so this force must be spread around the shafts and transmission bearings of the reduction case, the whole design must be sturdy.
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