powerandpassionSkids ain’t skids
Were the tailskids on RAF fighters like Bulldogs & Furies a generic design?
Bristol Bulldog tailskid and rubber suspension system is entirely different to Hawker Hart family tailskid and suspension system.
Perhaps aircraft from the same designer, as seqential designs, had common components, which would be logical, eg Hawker Hart and Hawker Fury.
powerandpassionHawker biplane
Found on another site
Possibly Hawker Biplane/Hurricane
http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=121656
Paul
Definitely Hawker Hart biplane family, part A14403 reproduced in plan and context below
powerandpassionThanks
Hi,
Try searching the Flight archive, there are many, many references there http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/index.html
[ATTACH=CONFIG]220736[/ATTACH]
Thank you John Aeroclub & Schneiderman for the info, will follow up, P&P.
powerandpassionAnyone got any photos of the restoration at Skysport? Are there any photos of the finished restoration outside?
From time to time on ebay there is a CD available with shots of the a/c outside post restoration, good closeups, on the grass. I have looked at the CD I have but no contact details on it, so can’t give you any more than that. Called “Aero detail series Bristol Bulldog”
powerandpassionShort Bros floats
Am looking also for proper dimensions!
Martin[/QUOTE]
Looks identical to photo of DH 60 floats in AAM Bankstown, thanks for that.
Dimensions are :
4,840mm long X 700mm wide (top view) X 540mm high (side view).
Surprisingly light to pickup, like lifting a kayak, unfortunately badly corroded.
So far I can figure that Shorts made ‘one off’ floats for Schneider racers (Supermarine & Gloster), then developed the Short S7 Mussel prototype with floats to market a light trainer. The Mussel floats were then put on a DH 60 in 1926 (Janic Geelen “Moths, Majors & Minors”) which worked well, stimulating the setup of a production line for the manufacture of floats for DH60 Moths, subsequently DH82 Tiger Moths through the 1930’s. I am trying to work out whether the Hawker Osprey (1932) would have used the same floats, given it was made in small float equipped numbers and I doubt a custom float would have been produced by Shorts for this aircraft, though I could be wrong ! In the Hawker Osprey setup the floats are thrust forward, I guess to shift the centre of gravity forward to cope with a heavier engine. In photos, the rear of the floats are always lower in the water than the front, when the plane is resting.
All up weight of DH 60 is given as 1,750 lb and Osprey as 5,560 lb so I guess that the Osprey float would be more robust in construction, but maybe not bigger ? Schneider Cup Supermarine S.6 all up weight is given as 6,086 lb and the original floats were developed from this application.
The Hawker Osprey is described as having F45 type Short Bros floats (Alex Crawford “Hawker Hart Family”). In photos, these floats have different inspection openings on the top surface to the DH60 float, a hole “midships” allowing the insertion of a wheel and axle in the float to allow the aircraft to be drawn up a slipway and a small rudder arrangement. In a separate publication the Osprey is described as being equipped with Short Type 1 floats (Ray Rimmel “Aeroguide Classics No.5 – The Hart Family”)
Surely there is a Short Bros expert out there that can put me out of my misery. F45 ? Type 1? How many different type of floats were there ? Even better, where are copies of Short Bros float plans ?!
powerandpassionFlowers of sulphur
“Tests have shown that a lubricant consisting of flowers of sulphur suspended in lanolin and reduced to a suitable consistency with castor oil practically eliminates fretting on con-rods. To be used on new production and repairs.” That is just one of many tricks RR had up their sleeve, who does it now?[/QUOTE]
Beaufighter, a delight to read this information. Flowers of sulphur. I can almost see a Shell chemist holding vial up to the light, a tear forming in his eye !
I would dearly love you to put this type of information down on paper. What might seem self evident to you might be priceless in 25 years time. I am very interested in building an understanding and documenting the technical information around historic aeroplane technology. Perhaps I can PM and start a conversation on this ?
Another gut instinct is that oils ain’t oils : Just like fuels have changed so Persian crude is different to North Sea crude and refining techniques in 2013 are different to those of 1941. Further, modern engines are designed to run on sun dried tomato and pesto type oils while old engines were designed to run on porridge type oils. Mix in decaying metallurgy with expensive, fancy pants oil decanted from a Ferrari and you get wear, maybe.
There are some great articles in late 1920’s Aircraft Engineering debating the move from accepted caster oil based lubricants to new fangled mineral based oils, which everybody said ‘would not work’. In delightful irony the times call for a return look at vegetable oil based lubricants as a carbon neutral alternative !
Recently I got some wartime BBC recordings of aircraft. What amazed me about the sounds of 70 years ago was the speed of the aircraft. They sounded nothing like what you hear at an airshow today. These were 20 year old pilots putting the throttle up against the stop. The engines were working. Perhaps the modern anxiety about not blowing the conrod out the side of an engine worth the price of a holiday house in Tuscany means that the engines are not being given a chance to clear their throats, residues are accumulating, uneven heating (hot-cold,hot,cold,hot,cold not hot,hot,hot,hot, cold) is happening and oils that look like a Bernie Ecclestone blonde instead of a fishwife are destroying the Mo-ers, as Arfur Daly would say….. Now that I think about Daly Motors, I’m off for a pint.
powerandpassionThank you
For about 20 years we had a pair of float the same as this one in our hanger roof, they were Ex Tiger / Gipsy Moth. We got them from the 1987 Christie’s Auction at Bournemouth – Ex-Leisure Sport Ltd ( They are now with a Gipsy Moth owner in Sussex – G-AALY ) I did see two other pair, one pair in LA and one pair in Oz which were the same model.
Thank you for the ID for aircraft, makes sense. Are these Short Bros floats ? What model number ? My understanding is that Short Bros supplied generic floats which could be fitted to any aircraft, eg Hawker Osprey ? Are there any plans or technical information on these floats out there to aid in rebuild ?
powerandpassionOils ain’t oils
A sample of genuine period engine oil from, say, a RR Merlin of the WW2 period is required for scientific analysis by oil manufacturers and I am posting this request on behalf of a UK-based aircraft restoration and operating company.
Does anyone ‘out there’ have any uncontaminated engine oil that is guaranteed from an early wartime British aircraft (ideally a Merlin). This is required for analysis purposes as Merlins are currently suffering a lot of accelerated wear and there is a question about how different – if at all – modern oils are and whether they are relevant to a Merlin; of course, it could be how they are operated and that this continues to be a source of potential problems. About 50 – 100cc would be perfect for our requirements and I know that such samples have routinely been found in crash recovered engine blocks.
Aeroshell handbook July 1945, reprint Sept 1946 :
“Specification tests alone are insufficient to predict with certainty the suitability of an engine oil, only by thorough investigation as carried out by Shell can its satisfactory performance be determined…For British engines, with few exceptions, Aeroshell 100 is recommended…the use of detergent doped oil is not yet generally acceptable to all engine manufacturers for various reasons…in some engine types detergent dopes may give rise to combustion chamber deposits. This has occurred with Rolls Royce engines, and for that reason detergent doped oils are not at present approved for any of the Rolls engines.”
A Petroleum Handbook Royal Dutch Shell 1938 :
“water cooled aero engines are lubricated with exactly the same type of oil as high class motor car engines”
Few clues in there. Maybe the metallurgy is not supporting longevity, ie intergranular corrosion of steel alloys over 70 years is altering the wear characteristics of engine components. If your teeth go yellow in time so will your original Merlin rockers. Perhaps modern oils are in fact compensating for this with higher performance, and the use of old style oils will exacerbate wear. Need to get a metallurgist, an oil chemist and an engine mechanic in the same room and send in a pizza. Maybe they might come out and say its time to manufacture new engine components using modern metallurgy supported by modern lubrication systems.
powerandpassionThis item was made by the John Deere Tractor Company for Grumman Aircraft. Does anyone know what this part is, and what aircraft type it is from? Any information, as always, would be greatly appreciated.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]220243[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]220244[/ATTACH]
Looks like a hydraulic flap jack…don’t know what aircraft part number 283XXX might be, blue anodised fitting might be 1950’s…
powerandpassionAudax and Demon pickup
Thanks for all these tips, I’ll look into the Hind next time I can get to Cosford. Plus the Demon connection is an interesting one which I’ll follow up as well. The Air Publication describing the Hawker Audax also has a poor quality sketch of the pick-up gear attached to the axle.
Regards,
Derek
Derek attached are Hawker plans for message pickup for Audax (first introduced in the Audax) and the Australian Demon.
powerandpassionPantone colours for this piece are :
Purple 2622U
Green 3165U
Blue 3025U
Pink 703U
Yellow 130U
This fabric is screen printed on coarse cloth with threads showing, so the colours seem washed out by 30% white thread.
I understand the dope was purposefully yellowed to tone down the bright primary colours rather than being yellowed by age.
I understand that this disruptive camoflague was not so much intended to blend with the background but to disrupt the regular shape of the fuselage to make fast, accurate sighting more difficult. Leading artists of the Dada school were engaged to create disruptive patterns for battleships and aircraft, no doubt hauled from absinthe and tobacco reeking Berlin dives to assist the Imperial German war effort. I always thought these patterns were painted on in the field but the mechanical printing seems to imply an organised approach. I am now setting up a screen based on this material around the computer so my loved ones cannot see me on keyforum and direct me to other tasks such as cleaning the gutters…
powerandpassionWould check here…
http://www10.ocn.ne.jp/~a6m232/page023.html
QldSpitty, what is this site – show and tell or banzaibay ? Are these items for swap or sale or ID purposes ?
Sorry, can’t read kanji. I am trying to get in contact with Japanese 1930’s aviation buffs – is this a doorway in ?
powerandpassionGrumman Martlet
B-17 tailwheel tyres are 26″ diameter.
Bendix catalogue shows Grumman Wildcat F4F, Martlet in UK service, as 26 X 6 Main Wheel size, and there is a PAIR….
but
The ebay picture is a visual match for Model G3 Smooth Contour Nose or Tail Wheel
so
It’s a Goodyear manufactured 26 inch standard wheel that could have been used on a Martlet or B-17 or a few other things, maybe….
Please note the catalogue states that is wheels have been stored for longer than 60 days new grease may be required.
I can send the lucky buyer a parts list for G3 type wheel.
powerandpassionBendix wheels
Would anyone identify what aircraft wheels with the following serial number would be off?
Serial No: 38276
1042N1254Fitted with BF Goodrich Tyres (no tread) and what looks like 8 ‘spokes’. They look more tail wheel than main. The only American aircraft I know were broken up on the local airfield were B-17 and B-24 (all RAF Lend Lease) so would this make any sense?
My understanding is that early in the piece, the loss of raw rubber supplies from Malaya generated a focus on standardizing parts, particularly wheels and tyres, across all aircraft. This was particularly taken up in the US, with the creation of the Army Navy (AN) coding system. Bendix wheels of similar type thus became common to Kittyhawks through the Mustangs, and no doubt Liberators to Invaders. It certainly made sense for battlefield maintenance.
Most Bendix wheels I have seen have a progressive series of serial numbers arranged on each spoke around the axle : drawing/design number, casting number (subcontractor), heat treatment number, so the manufacturing history of each wheel can be read. There should be a range of numbers on your wheel. Most cast wheels are 6 spoke or 9 spoke.
The size of the tyre should help to narrow down the application. I am still getting my head around the nomenclature of tyre sizing, if it is a UK manufactured tyre it is tyre (width : rim), if it is a US manufactured tyre, as no doubt a BF Goodrich tyre might be, it may be another dataset. A photo and the tyre dimensions will help.
I have at my left a Bendix parts catalogue printed for the US Navy, which will match some wheel codes with US naval aircraft. Whenever I go to an airshow, I always look at the wheels to try an decode US wheel logic, with the conclusion that the sensible approach outlined in paragraph 1 is the logic. Your wheel and tyre most likely fitted a number of types.
In honour of the Lend Lease scheme which saved the United Kingdom, the organisation of an alternative South American rubber supply through the United States, the convoys over the Cruel Sea, The Yankee matrilineal genius of Sir Winston Churchill and the 30% of gross revenue of the United States government which was diverted towards the Marshall Plan post war to ensure a lasting peace, I have chosen to spell american as American. God Bless the United States of America !
powerandpassionWhat does this say about attitudes within Nazi Germany? Without wishing in any way to undermine the courage of this group was this the greatest act of civil resistance against the Nazi regime; a few students printing and distributing pamphlets?[/QUOTE]
The Nazi regime was voted into power in 1933, its first concentration camps were established in 1934. The development of Goring’s Prussian police force into the national Gestapo occurred in 1933. Resistance to National Socialism started with street battles with Communists in the 1920’s and was formalized with state coordinated extermination of ‘enemies of the state’ from 1933 onwards. There is a photograph of the times which shows a deceased young man who has forced half his way under a prison gate when the prison, filled with political prisoners, was burnt, by the state, to the ground. The destruction of the Nazi SA before the war showed what even happened to fellow travellers.
So, after six years of harnessing the total power of a state to eliminate individual or coordinated opposition those who might form the nucleus of a Hollywood recognized resistance were already dead by 1939.
I see the Nazi regime as an organism of seduction and terror. For the majority, the seduction to right the wrongs of the Versailles Treaty, to have food on the table and to become a great nation would resonate with any pre-war reasonable mind. An old German bricklayer, former Wermacht, told me many years ago : if you were registered as Aryan, you received from the state a free house, a free car (volks-wagen), and free wireless. Today, if my government did this for me, I would be pretty happy with it. Resist ? Are you joking ? Once this government drew me into a just war, and the war resulted in a bomb landing on my friend or family, arcane, distant politics would transform into a personal story of resistance against a personal enemy. By 1939, that enemy was the encircling octopus of Poland, France and Britain, in the language of the Reichstag.
In the midst of this, in 1943, at a military draft age, in the shrill urgency of military and national survival, to coordinate the printing and public distribution of treasonous pamphlets, was an act of breathtaking bravery. I could imagine myself, in Nivenesque moustache, hiding in some shrubbery and activating a charge under a bridge as Tiger tanks rolled over, I don’t know if I would have the courage to do what the students did.
Any genuine enquiry into history must harness empathy to develop understanding. It is best to put German resistance, or aquiescence, in context of atmospherics we might have navigated as individuals today. In the invasion of Iraq, on the wings of revulsion at what happened at the twin towers, with the calm assurance of Colin Powell that we were serving the need of self preservation from weapons of self destruction, with the printing of photos of Baathist secret police filling the shirt pocket of a young man with high explosive, who, in nations equipped with every agency of free self expression, resisted the idea of the invasion ? I think it was a girl band of country and western singers who demonstrated what modern resistance, in the spirit of democracy, might be.
In the spirit of violence, there was a bomb plot against Hitler. It was just that the Nazi’s were better at violence than anyone else.*
* until 1944 when the massed bombing, superior armaments, preponderance of trained personnel and superior raw material supplies of the Allies blew the Nazis to Hades.
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