Steve TWhat a shame to see these Shacks in this state. Surely, even if scrapping them is the only option, there must be plenty there worth saving. I think particularly of the fact that many of the running Griffon engines have at least partial Shack lineage…and the fact that CWH’s Lancaster only flies because it is fitted with Shackleton wheels (on Lincoln gear), the original Lanc parts having been an impractical proposition. And then there’s that recurring idea about sticking a Shack Griffon on a Fury airframe…! Beyond that, there’s the surely-achievable notion of restoring the Shack cockpit sections. Wish I were in a position to do something…anything…about these… 🙁
S.
Steve TDaz–
Whaaaat! There’s an MJ100 at Gilbert Aircraft? Holy cow! Had nary a clue about that. Will have to make a return visit, since it’s only a few miles…
BTW over on WIX there was an interesting exchange about replica Typhoons (hypothetical; no one’s actually building one). For several reasons I think that would be a very worthy project.
S.
Steve TJames–
Far as I know, Sea Prince WF133/C-GJIE is still at Downsview for sale. Have pix of this (taken ca. 2001) and of the one at Anoka MN (1999) if you’re interested.
Cheers
S.
(PS AirJimL2…I can think of a potential use for one or more of the Leonides on the ex-YAF Pembroke…can you?) :rolleyes:
Steve THi all–
Great stuff. I was three (actually not even quite, if this was April ’68) when the RAF Silver Jubilee Review occurred and wouldn’t be interested in aircraft for another seven or eight years; have hardly ever seen pix from this landmark event.
Did a bit of teeth-grinding though when Beaufighter RD867 popped up. She’s one of three “Beaux” I’ve ever seen and the only one in Canada. Sadly she’s been parked outside at Rockcliffe since arriving (in trade for a Bolingbroke) sans engines/props in 1969. She does not look these days like she did in the Abingdon pic…needless to say. She’ll be under cover soon when CAvM’s new storage hangar is complete, but it will be a very long time before she is restored, if indeed she ever is (CAvM have many other projects in the pipeline)…
S.
Steve TWhat a great thread…
I remember my first three kits. #1 was a bubble-packed Airfix 1:72 SPAD VII in Guynemer’s markings (for some reason the SPAD caught my fancy early); I built it to a dubious standard and did not paint it (the tan colour in which it was molded was rather smart already, I thought). Bought it for $2 or so at Booth’s Hobbies, one of those marvelous long-gone places with the huge deep windows out front and a grandly creaky hardwood floor…Kits #2 and #3 (not sure about which was first) were a Matchbox Bf109E and an Airfix F4U-1, both also 1:72. The 109, for some reason, I painted but did not want to decal–so I replicated all the markings by hand, Heaven knows why. The F4U I got for $2.14 including tax (thought that was an apt price, given that the “Black Sheep” TV series, about VMF-214, was on in those days) at a Miracle Mart. I remember the prop and undercart kept breaking on that kit and it ultimately looked like the prop hub and gear legs had been cocooned with dried glue…
None of these kits has survived, but the model responsible for my interest in Warbirds does. My Dad was building a Veron balsa Nieuport 27 and borrowed some library books on WWI aircraft to research a colour scheme. Soon I was sketching and building models of WWI, then WWII, aircraft. Scratchbuilt a SPAD and a Fokker E.III in construction paper at one point. Wish those were still around but they’re not; however, that balsa Nieuport, which never did get completed, is hanging on the wall in my loft to this day, as a reminder of how the whole mess got started… 😮
S.
Steve TReused reg’s
Peter et al–
Re CF-RAF, that, oddly enough, is not the only ex-Warbird civil registration to be seen on a Reynolds museum bird. In the main building is a Pietenpol (iirc) suspended from the ceiling, finished smartly in overall bright red, and wearing the registration CF-BDH…which once belonged to the first CWH Fairey Firefly!
S.
Steve TJim/Peter–
This is interesting: yes, a Vampire F.3 did go from CWH to Reynolds, and it was one of the famous Fliteways N68**D batch…but it wasn’t 17071, it was 17020, which iirc was N6863D (I’ve got a pic somewhere showing the “ghost” of the c/r on a tailboom).
The resulting questions are…1. is this just 17020 painted as 17071 because the latter wore the 442 Sqn bat head? 2. if this really is 17071, was she restored using parts of 17020? 3. where is 17020 now, if this isn’t her??
S.
Steve TMike–
Great stuff. Knew those four glorious Schneider contenders had finally been brought together but hadn’t seen pix yet. The Italians always have been tops at combining engineering with high style…
Anyone else notice how very close the resemblance is between the nose profile of the MC.72 and that of a mid-production (VIII/IX/XVI) Spitfire? And this on a 1931 seaplane. Whew.
These machines have an appeal unlike anything else. I’m an aviation artist (well, approximately) in Canada; have never seen any of these birds in the flesh (did see the S.6B in the Science Museum once). Two of the other brush-wielders I know here have produced paintings of the Macchi seaplane racers, though, simply because they were both taken with the looks and history of the designs. Wish I could post those images here, I think the forum members would enjoy them.
The MC.72 fairly shouts out to be replicated, doesn’t it? Hmm. Two Falconer V12 boat engines end-to-end? Two Ferrari 333SP engines? Two 330GT units? Surely the sheer passion for speed that produced these birds in the first place still lurks somewhere (where a commensurate amount of disposable cash also lurks)…?
In any case…now I have another museum display to add to my list of “must-sees” in continental Europe if I ever manage to get there…
Cheers
S.
Steve THi all–
Well, my ’04 UK season wasn’t much, since I haven’t been to the UK since ’89! :rolleyes:
Seriously, it’s been a very decent year airshows-wise. Despite a cool, glum, damp summer here, just about every show I went to boasted weather that was at least OK, and most boasted very fine conditions. Season just closed out a couple weekends back with a fly-in at Guelph, Ontario. Sadly not much remains of the once-vibrant Ontario show circuit (Hamilton gone; Trenton intermittent; Ottawa abruptly cancelled a few weeks before the ’04 event was to have run…) but fortunately south of the border, bless ’em, they’ve got two terrific Warbird gatherings comparatively close by. Willow Run (Michigan) is just spectacular these days (this year, a dozen TBMs in the air together; three P-47s in formation; Jim Read’s breathtaking P-51 aerobatic routine etc) and has become an absolute must. And Geneseo (New York)…we not-wholly-jokingly refer to “Gennie” as The Best Canadian Airshow In The USA. Many of the participating aircraft and pilots, the lead commentator (ex-Spit driver Charley Fox), and a good chunk of each year’s crowd are Canadian. And the airfield is turf. Highlights this year included the superb CHAA Harvard five-plane demo, two Spitfires and a Hurricane. Seeing the Hurricane flying (heck, even taxiing) ranks as my #1 highlight for ’04. I had not seen a Hurri with its prop turning since the same show twelve years ago…one of the final flying appearances, of course, for the late lamented C-GCWH. By the start of the ’93 season she was gone. I’d wondered whether I’d ever see another one fly without returning to the UK. (Thanx Mr Yagen and co!)
S.
Steve TTV appearances…
There must be tons of these. A couple I can think of:
–Star Trek episode, involving a kind of virtual-reality planet part of the Enterprise crew gets stuck on. Two of them get strafed by a Warbird that in different bits of the sequence seems to be either a Texan or a Corsair…the one crewman gets killed despite the fact that the centuries-old Warbird in question is a figment of his imagination…(And of course, in Star Trek, all the Romulan ships are Warbirds, too!)
–One of the late-70s/early-80s PI series (possibly Magnum PI–can’t recall). Clay Lacy’s magenta P-51D forces a Learjet (presumably also Lacy’s) down in the desert.
–Twilight Zone (original early-60s version), episode called “King Nine”. Variation on the tragic “Lady Be Good” story, involving a USAAF B-25 called “King Nine” that bellies in in the desert, and what becomes of the crew afterward. IIRC Rod Serling was a bit of an aviation buff.
–Spielberg’s “Amazing Stories” series from the 80s. Daft bit of business about a B-17 ball-turret gunner whose cartoon doodles come true. Kind of “Memphis Belle” (1990) meets “Simon in the Land of Chalk Drawings”. This particular one I found offensive, actually. Mr S usually treats history rather less cavalierly, fortunately!
–Canadian cereal commercial (Raisin Bran)…A barnstormer, in a hurry to get on the ground for a fix of cereal, arrives by crashing through a shed. A clever mix of B&W footage; CWH’s Fleet 21 and Tiger Moth are seen in the air; the crash is a period archival shot of I don’t remember what crashing through the barn; and the wreckage in which the pilot is finally seen sitting (eating Raisin Bran, of course) is a PT-26 Cornell hulk also owned by CWH…a bit of trivia being that it was CF-CVF, which has since been beautifully restored in Norwegian markings and now flies from Mt.Hope.
S.
Steve THurricane…6 Sqn BP188??
All–
There are some familiar flying shots of 6 Sqn Hurricanes in the desert, one of which is BP188. 6 Sqn’s code was JV; BP188 was aircraft Z. I’m looking at one of the pix in Frank Mason’s Hurricane book. The bottom of the “J” is almost smudged-out by exhaust stains; the “JV” is a pale colour while the “Z” is very dark and noticeably glossy. With the Hurri’s rear-fuselage contours and the bright sunlight in this shot, depending on the angle, I could see the horizontal strokes of the “Z” disappearing against the light-hued camo, leaving a “slash”. In fact even in this shot the upper bar of the “Z” is only just visible, with a bright splotch of glare at the top of the diagonal…Could the mystery shot be another angle of the same aircraft, maybe from the same sequence?
BTW, that Marauder unit had three aircraft with similar nose art and names beginning with “Dominion”. IIRC they were “Dominion Thunderer”, “Dominion Uproar” and “Dominion Revenge”. Would be lovely to see one of ’em on the circuit…
S.
Steve TPhillip et al–
Knew this would be an interesting discussion. A lot of it is pure fantasy, yes; as I said in my previous post, anything that gets replicated, ever, will be because it’s desirable enough for a number of collectors to pony up the necessary cash to make it happen. Of the types that have been mentioned, I could see this being true for the P-26 (actually with the F3Fs built years ago it’s almost a surprise that the nifty Peashooter hasn’t been replicated yet) or the Ju87, and maybe the Mossie (already basically underway in any case) and Hornet. Might add the Curtiss P-6 and the Hawker Fury (biplane), either of which could perhaps use Falconer V12 race-boat engines…or maybe the Fiat CR.32 or Heinkel 51. Practicality, as well as desirability, is an issue. One of my acquaintances (Stateside), for instance, has mulled over building an AW Siskin “external replica”…powered with a P&W R985. More or less like operating a Super Stearman or AgCat. Viable in series? Probably not…but practical enough, and what a way to arrive at a show!
A notch further up the scale, I’d still love to see the same thing happen with the USNAM Brewster 239 (F2A) that transpired with the Navy’s static display Me262: half a dozen replicas “cloned” from the recovered bird, with the original returning to USNAM in due course. An F2A would be FM-2-like from an operational standpoint, and the Wildcat is one of the more practical Warbirds. And the Finns could have one not only in one of their museums, but on the circuit too…
Re the revival of (say) a classic British type in a factory in Asia…I doubt that would bother those with an enthusiasm for such things (unless the replicas were claimed as original somehow). We’ve already had German Me262s built in Washington and Japanese Ki43s in Texas…a run of P-26s from China, say, would surely be more than welcome at any of the venues I can think of! (And come to think of it the Chinese had a batch of P-26s ca.1940.) As I said before I think that is a fine idea and one very much worth exploring.
Hadn’t heard about TAF doing Stukas. Roll on that idea! A Ju87, siren and all, diving on Geneseo (or Duxford, or Wanaka…) Wow.
S.
Steve THi guys–
Surprised there aren’t more replies to this one! What a loaded question…and the idea of components or whole airframes being built in “non-traditional” locations is a fascinating one. (In the commercial industry this has already begun, with collaborations between established “Western” aircraft manufacturers and partners elsewhere. Far back as the early 90s there was, for instance, the CASA-Nurtanio CN235 tactical transport/freighter, a collaborative effort between firms in Spain and Indonesia).
Anyway. What to replicate? Hmm. Mr Powell’s magnificent venture in NZ should eventually lead to the Wooden Wonder returning to her element. The F3Fs, FW190s, Me262s, Ki43s and A6Ms are all progressing, with some having entered flight test and others happily flying with museum collections for years now. And of course numerous of the current P-51s and Spitfires are virtually new aircraft, though they do stem from an original somehow. What gets replicated, ever, will be determined by desirability…just like Shelby Cobras and their many “clones”. But setting that principle aside…what SHOULD be replicated? Here are a few I’d like to see:
Royal Aircraft Factory S.E.4 (1914 fighter with a BUBBLE CANOPY!)
Handley Page O/100 or O/400
Handley Page Heracles (…apparently this is already on the cards)
deHavilland DH.91 Albatross
Short Empire
Boeing 314/314A Clipper
Armstrong Whitworth Siskin (…speaking as a Canuck!)
Hughes H-1 (of course there was one of these all too briefly)
Vultee P-66 Vanguard (using Valiant components?)
Hawker Typhoon
deHavilland DH.103 Hornet/Sea Hornet
Vickers Wellington (using Viking/Valletta wings?)
Junkers Ju87
Nakajima Ki84 Hayate
Vought XF5U “Flapjack” (…simply to see whether it would’ve worked!)
…Aw geez, there are just too many. Re the Wellington, I well recall seeing a news item in FP (I think) years ago about a Viking/Valletta that had been torched by moronic vandals at one of the UK collections. The wings and tail were all that was left, sadly. And the first thing I thought was “hmmm…how about building a Wellington fuselage to install in the middle of these remains”?
S.
Steve TFor me, it was two relatives rather than one, but one of the two was Dad, who built balsa gliders and the like; the other was my cousin Don who lived with my parents while attending the local university (at which I now work) in the 70s, and who had recently obtained his pilot’s licence…
Anyway, more or less simultaneously, around 1976 or so, Dad’s borrowed library books (on World War I aircraft, so he could get the paintscheme right on a Veron balsa Nieuport 27) piqued my interest and I began sketching SPADs and Fokkers et cetera (I’ve subsequently taken up aviation art as a hobby), and cousin Don arrived from Thunder Bay with his pilot’s licence and began every so often renting Cherokees and the like and taking members of my family up. This, to a kid of 11 or so, was the acme of cool…Then there we were, holding on a taxiway at Mt.Hope, and here was this big boxy twin-finned dark green thing rumbling away in front of us. Dad knew it was a Mitchell. (I wondered why they’d bothered putting two tails on it when surely one would’ve been sufficient!) It was, of course, CWH’s then-recently-acquired B-25J. Around the same time we noted the “CWH” signs on the walls of Hgr#4 at Mt.Hope; I still vividly remember peering through a little Georgian-glass window in one of the hangar “mandoors” and seeing the Firefly, a clutch of yellow Harvards, and (maybe) the Avenger. Didn’t really know exactly what these were…but I didn’t need to in order for The Bug to bite me bigtime at that moment…and once The Bug bites…the effect never leaves you! 😀
Great thread, this.
S.
Steve TPR451 in ’86
Mark–
Noted with interest that your shot of the Seafire at Calgary airport in 1986 shows a cowling removed…You don’t happen to have been there when they test-ran the Griffon by any chance?? That would have been the right year. As far as I can determine that would have been the last time a Griffon VI ran. They only fired it up about twice (partly becasue they only had so many starter cartridges)! I only found out about this a couple years ago; it was, to say the least, a surprise.
S.
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