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Tu22m

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  • in reply to: Saab Gripen & Gripen NG thread #3 #2214006
    Tu22m
    Participant

    “Saab is to modify 60 Gripen C fighters to the enhanced E-model configuration for the Swedish air force”

    So it says, and if true, will offer less performance than a new built.
    An alternative is that the wording was meant for domestic consumption, so the entire airframe will be new built, with new electronic architecture,
    and only ejection seat and a few other items will carry over.

    The whole fuselage, all avionics, the tail, wings and engine are new… calling it an upgrade sounds better in politics. And as always, reality has a tendency to differ from political dogmas.

    in reply to: will stealth become irrelevant? #2214013
    Tu22m
    Participant

    Actually, in the medium term, I’d have thought the reverse could become true.

    Your DEW would be powerful enough to take out a missile, but not powerful enough to take out a (suitably shielded) aircraft.

    Which means your back to using the good ol gun.

    The logic behind my reasoning is simple. In BVR you can fire a salvo of 2-3 missiles. That will likely be more than the DEW can handle while in a dogfight the laser has 1 target.

    Another way of development is the usage of short range self defense missiles like IRIS-T as a hard kill countermeasure. IR missiles typically cost about 1/3rd of BVR missiles.

    sry for messed up post, I only have my cell currently.

    in reply to: will stealth become irrelevant? #2214147
    Tu22m
    Participant

    But the lasers will be more than capable of destroying a missile in flight, with a very high probability of doing so. I wouldn’t go as far say as to say BVR missiles would be obsolete, but they would be seriously outclassed.

    How many missiles can you fire at once vs how many missiles can you take down with a DEW?

    in reply to: will stealth become irrelevant? #2214151
    Tu22m
    Participant

    Arent lasers supposed to have very high frequencies? The atmospheric absorption levels are fairly high in that spectrum. Perhaps DEWs will kill the dogfight, but BVR will be dominated by missiles even in the future.

    For instance the YAL-1 used a laser at 10.6 microns wavelength (source APA) putting it in the 30THz range.

    http://www.mmwconcepts.com/Atmosphere%20Corrected%2019%20May%202009.jpg

    As we see, simple things like fog (clouds) absorb over 100db per km. And then we have the question of how many Watt the target can take.
    Conversion: http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/EN/units-converter/frequency-wavelength/1-31/hertz-wavelength_in_micrometres/

    in reply to: F-35 News, Multimedia & Discussion thread (2) #2221634
    Tu22m
    Participant

    In other words, NATO members are being saddled with an aircraft in the same class as that which was previously unanimously rejected, and this in an era of much greater spending and facing a far more credible and formidable threat.

    But this time it’s both cheap and light weight…

    in reply to: F-35 News, Multimedia & Discussion thread (2) #2221667
    Tu22m
    Participant

    OTOH in the past the F-15 was never on the table for the Norwegian pilots either…

    Speaking of…
    F15 empty weight: 12’700kg, dry thrust 130KN
    F35 empty weight: 13’300kg, dry thrust 125KN

    Basically Norway is getting a fighter in the same class as an F15 (at least when counting weight and thrust).

    I for one hope that the lessons learned from Allied Force and Desert Storm make Denmark pick a fighter that is sustainable in longer operations, like F16V or Gripen.

    in reply to: F-35 News, Multimedia & Discussion thread (2) #2221967
    Tu22m
    Participant

    Now put a line on that graph that shows an F-35A with 4 AMRAAMs and only 25% fuel and this would be a valid comparison.

    Just like one does when comparing any jet with the Flankers? Oh, wait…

    (Su27 has a combat radius of 810nm on internal fuel (970nm+ cruise radius), F35A has 584nm.

    Assuming a similar relation for other fighters between max range and combat range we get the following (form FAS).
    Su27, max range internal fuel = 4000km/2000km radius and 3000km combat range (1500km radius) => 75%.

    Gripen E, range on internal fuel: 2500km/1250km radius => 1875km range, 938km radius => 1014nm range, 507nm radius (with a light load). It is likely to be a little bit lower but at least this gives us a similar benchmark.

    F35A on recce mission (similar to cruise radius on fas.org) is advertised as 673nm, the same ratio here is 0,9 => 606nm radius for the F35 (in reality its just below 600nm because of this, 584/590*673*0,9=599,5)

    Su27 on internal fuel has combat radius of 810nm.

    So a fair comparison (according to you) would be Gripen E with 100% fuel, F35A with 84% fuel, Su27 with 63% fuel and F35B with 127% fuel.

    I know this isnt exactly apples to apples but at least all numbers are calculated somewhat equally. The F35 numbers are on the upside (as always).

    Btw, 25% internal fuel on the F35 would at best put it at a radius of 152nm. Not exactly a fair comparison is it? The F35 has good range but the difference isnt so vast you have to alter benchmarks for it.

    EDIT: If we take the numbers from USN we get this for the Super Hornet.
    Range: Combat: 1,275 nautical miles (2,346 kilometers), clean plus two AIM-9s or ca 638nm radius, it is likely to go down to ca 600nm if you add BVR missiles and time for maneuvering.

    Once again, if the F35 should get the special treatment and new benchmarks then so should others.

    http://www.navair.navy.mil/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.displayPlatform&key=C42247D4-36AF-4038-AD33-B559F68AA774
    http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/su-27.htm

    in reply to: Saab Gripen & Gripen NG thread #3 #2222842
    Tu22m
    Participant

    No, no, no ! Saab in Brazil has used and abused when saying :
    – the CPFH of Gripen NG is LESS THAN US$ 4,000/hour, see the bottom of the Gripen NG site in official Brazilian Air Force domain;
    – Gripen NG costs 1/3 of Super Hornet and Rafale CPFH, which is not confirmed by Swiss estimates for Gripen NG, US Navy CPFH of Super Hornet and French CPFH of Rafale;

    It all depends on how one counts. The marginal cost is probably less than 4000$/hr.

    Compared to the Super Hornet, the Gripen C (from the Janes study) has roughly 40% of the installed dry thrust –> about 2/5ths fuel consumption. And it requires much less maintenance. Ofc the difference in cost will shrink if you include the facilities and similarily increase if all you include is whats crucial just for operating the ac. Janes say that the Gripen cost is roughly 42% of the FA18EF costs when compared to the FOC Super Hornets i USN.

    The Janes study is the only apples to apples comparison out there (except for the relation one gets where they compare Hawk and Gripen or the RTAF numbers).

    RTAF claims F16 costs abut twice as much to operate compared to Gripen. One should note that it is old F16s, the Janes study only put the Gripen at67% of the flight hour costs.

    So the comparison shouldnt be treated as gospel, but as an effort to make an apples to apples comparison it is legit.

    The 4’000$ figure may have originated in the late 90s/early 2000 when SwAF had conscripts doing maintenance. So as a non inflationadjusted figure it is also correct. And untill we know what the numbers actually describes it is neither gospel nor lie.

    in reply to: F-35 News, Multimedia & Discussion thread (2) #2223452
    Tu22m
    Participant

    As we can see, all fighters has a wingsweep of 40* or more…but wait, there is an abomination,
    we find that one has a wingsweep closer to 30, 33 to be precise.
    Much like its predecessor F-117, it has the designation F, but it is not a fighter,
    it is an evolutionary subsonic bomber but with much better self defense aid, even able to go supersonic if given enough time.

    Dare I say we have one more more abomination?
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/McDONNELL_DOUGLAS_F-A-18_HORNET.png
    It looks a bit like 26,5 degrees… ish

    in reply to: Saab Gripen & Gripen NG thread #3 #2223790
    Tu22m
    Participant

    In last 12 to 13 years. Almost 1500 GE 400/414 engine built. that kind of pace is impossible going forward.
    the LCA MK2 is very slow induction. first operational some where in 2020 period. Gripen NG is similar situation of post 2018 period.
    T50 is hardly 10 per year. so how you are counting 300 signed orders and on what will be yearly production rate?

    Its not yearly bro. It’s what is on order in current contracts for Tejas Mk2 and Gripen E. It will be spread over some 7 years or so. It’ stil not that shabby. How many Snecma M88 will be produced in that time?

    in reply to: Saab Gripen & Gripen NG thread #3 #2224274
    Tu22m
    Participant

    Gripen NG is coming too late to take advantage of higher production volume of F414. and top of that there is highly likelihood that final Gripen NG will be heavier than estimated that will decrease its performance/fuel consumption

    Even though there are less Super Hornets being built the Tejas Mk2 is picking up speed (some 110+) as well as Gripen E (118 + a very likely production of 68 or more) + T50 in future sales. Its not the same as when the Super Hornet was at peak production but it still is a lot of engines.

    We also have the US T-X competition where T50 (again) is likely to be offered with F414.

    So the production line may be less than at peak bit but it is still running strong. I’m counting ca 300 engines in current orders and a couple of more down the road.

    Eithr way it is cheaper than RM12.

    in reply to: Saab Gripen & Gripen NG thread #3 #2224479
    Tu22m
    Participant

    The EF is fast, but still has a mechanically scanned array. The Rafale is nimble but has the smallest radar of the bunch. The SH has the most capable radar of the three, tied with the EF for size but a very modern AESA. It also has a towed decoy and some other nice features, but it is the slowest of the group… etc.

    I don’t see any reason to believe that the above chart doesn’t represent how the aircraft score out in a generalized air to air scenario of one type or another.

    It’s always amusing to read your trolling attempts.

    Eurofighter is currently being offered with AESAs, the CAESAR has better performance than APG-79.
    ES-05 (in Gripen) will be slightly smaller but otoh it will be GaN based.

    So no, SH may have the most capable radar fielded today but it does not have the best radar in the offer.. and thats what’s relevant. U r welcome.

    in reply to: Saab Gripen & Gripen NG thread #3 #2224530
    Tu22m
    Participant

    Clearly it is simplified, and must represent a scenario fairly favorable to the Gripen NG, (air to air, and likely at a fairly short distance) but other than that this really isn’t that hard to grasp unless you buy into the APA fanboy business.

    Why would it be at a likely short distance? Gripen E, armed, has an action radius of more than 1700km or 919nm. That is not short range.

    And when it comes to A2A the EF2000 has the largest radar amongst the eurocanards, low RCS etc. I only see two options, if its accurate then it is binary, otherwise it is illustrative.

    in reply to: Saab Gripen & Gripen NG thread #3 #2224553
    Tu22m
    Participant

    This chart clearly refers primarily to air to air capability. There, at least arguably, the Gripen NG could be on the same level with the SH, Rafale, and Eurofighter, the F-22 would lead everyone, with the F-35 and PAK FA in between the F-22 and the best of the 4th generation jets.

    Naturally, as usual, if that wasn’t the outcome you would prefer to believe in then it must not be the case. :stupid:

    The chart only makes sense if it is binary or if it’s symbolic. I agree that F16IN should be put higher.

    in reply to: Saab Gripen & Gripen NG thread #3 #2224668
    Tu22m
    Participant

    Are we sure the F/A-18E/F cannot drop a nuke? What else would the USN use to deliver it’s cache of nukes on board each carrier?

    The old Hornets. Dont think the Super Hornet is cleared for it and besides… its only nuclear bombs, not missiles.

    Either way. I think that is the only way to describe the chart.

Viewing 15 posts - 331 through 345 (of 1,142 total)