GD, apologies for the rant-in-agreement. Was a bit tired i guess.

The MiG-21 is actually simpler than the MiG-19, which is a twin engined jet. What kind of convoluted logic do you have in making a single engined fighter of the same technological vintage being complicated than a twin engined one?

I’d say the one with the variable intake and the more advanced engine, in this case the MiG-21. Don’t forget that the original Su-25 engine simply was a non-afterburning RD-9 from the MiG-19 because that engine was incredibly simple, reliable and sturdy unlike later, more advanced engines. It also explains why China was able to churn out thousands of J-6es from the 1960s on, whereas it took almost twenty years after the transfer of MiG-21 technology to the PRC before the first seriously airworthy J-7s flew.

The reason why the MiG-19 was retired early was because it was difficult to fly, difficult to maintain, costly to build (compared to the MIG-21), and you can’t put a decent radar on it. But the Chinese kept the J-6 because it was refined to a point where the plane is equal to more than a match to the J-7 in WVR. In fact, it outpowers the J-7 (two 3250kg engines going up to 3750kg in later versions vs 1 6000kg).

True, the J-6/MiG-19 is a formidable day fighter/attacker in the hands of a capable pilot, but that is all it is or (in all seriousness) ever could be. Apart from the Q-5 attack plane, China’s attempts to make something more out of the J-6 failed: the radar-equipped and high-altitude variants on the MiG-19 theme were absolute failures. The Chinese did manage to tweak the engine somewhat, but that IMHO hardly makes the late J-6es ‘refined’ when compared to late-generation MiG-21s (with R21 or R25 engines).

[quoe]What? The J-8I has a radar size as big or bigger than the MiG-21bis. You can’t judge a nose by how far it protrudes.[/quote]
The SR-4 as big as the Sapfir-21? If you don’t mind, i’d like a source for that.

The reason why the J-8I is built in limited numbers, and the J-7C/D even less was that the PLAAF pilots never had a good impression of their flight and handling qualities.

The J-8I was built in small numbers because it finally became clear that if you want to have a fighter with a reasonable range, you need to give the aircraft some decent detection capability of it’s own. Until the J-8II and J-7III/IV, the PLAAF just did not have any fighters with an even remotely autonomous target finding capability. All there was were short-ranged ground-controlled fighters like the J-6 and a handful of J-7s. While these certainly are a lot more fun to fly for pilots than true interceptors, in all reality such jets were totally useless for the defense of a country like the PRC.
While designed to be a step forward from China’s other fighters, the J-8I simply offered nothing more over a J-7II except range, range which could bring it well outside the local GCI pocket on which the PLAAF air defence was organised. A more decent radar was needed: enter the J-8II.
I don’t think flight characteristics and pilot’s comments would have been all that important. Otherwise, i’m sure a nifty little jet like the J-12 would certainly have entered service.

There was a good reason why the J-6s were built in their numbers—they were quite popular, although it was difficult to master being sluggish at low speeds and prone to stalling. Once mastered however, it’s hard to beat in WVR combat. You don’t think the PLAAF would exercise their planes against each other do you?

I think you forget the most important reasons why the J-6 was built in those huge numbers:
First, it was the only thing available until at least the end of the 1970s.
Second, the build quality throughout the Chinese production run ment that at least hundreds of them (like the J-6III failure) were hardly airworthy, or impossible to keep airworthy with spares built in a different ‘era’ of J-6 production.
From what i know about the J-6 production and the ongoing problems it had with quality control, specification compliance and attempted improvements, i seriously doubt that of the some 4000 J-6es built more than 2000 would have been available (or at least operationally deployed) at any given time. Don’t forget that the sortie requirement for J-6es according to Ken Allen was only one sortie per three days.

Arthur, after the Cultural Revolution, everything suffered in build quality. There are many horror stories about the J-6 quality as well. A large number of J-6s were built in late seventies leading towards the end of the production run somewhere in the mid to late eighties.

There were more causes of the poor quality of certain J-6 production batches. Production transfer from one factory to another around 1960, materials from the Great Leap Forward during the early 1960s, then a few decent years, then the Cultural Revolution… Those were the Mao-days in which it seemed to be part of every Five Year Plan to think of a new way to f*ck up the entire country. Of course that had it’s impact.

It was until the J-7E came along that PLAAF was willing to let the J-6 legacy go.

It’s not because the PLAAF was unwilling! Before the J-7E, there simply was nothing available to be produced in sufficient numbers without foreign input. Don’t forget that in the early 1980s, China was considering building Harriers under liscence and getting F-16s as fighters. This was canned because it would harm the domestic aviation industry/infrastructure, reason why the Peace Pearl program was started.

You don’t seriously think the the bulk of the PLAAF consisted of MiG-19s until the mid-1990s just because it’s such a joy to fly and has such powerful guns?

How close is the Koala related to this thing? Aerodynamically it looks quite similar. I’m a total noob on drones and other unpiloted stuff, but i thought this was a Raduga recce drone of the very fast kind?

I was thinking it had a Ghostbusters-mark because the M2K is Greece’s only air defense fighter not carrying the Ghost scheme. So a Ghostbusters-badge would IMHO nicely display some healthy Mirage-over-Lawndarts-and-Spooks arrogance. Of course that changes if this is indeed the F-16 killer.

Hey Phantom, i’ve met a guy once who had the Spook as a tattoo. Not too big, quite decent really. Perhaps an idea? Just make sure you keep a design on you all the time, and perhaps you wake up one morning after a really drunken night with a nice surprise for yourself 😉

(I almost ended up with a Spetsnaz/Hind tattoo that way, thank goodness the tattoo guy from the Mahlwinkel parachute regiment had already been withdrawn to Russia…)

Reeeeally flimsy pylon.

The J-7II differed greatly from J-7I which was a licensed production plane. China had all the blueprints for the MiG-21F-13 and the J-7I is no different from a Russian MiG-21F.

It was built without a license, but blueprints and pattern aircraft (including one surviving at Datang Shan) were delivered. It’s not a one-on-one copy of the common MiG-21F-13 Fishbed-C though: the J-7 has two 30mm cannons, while the MiG-21F-13 has one. The original -21F had two guns, but that one was built in only minimal numbers.

The J-7II, OTOH, was very different and was the basis for today’s J-7s.

The J-7II was still little more than the original MiG-21F-13, but thankfully Chinese production standards had improved by then. The main difference from an operational point of view between the original J-7s fromt the late 1960s and the post-CR J-7s is the fact that you can actually change parts from one J-7 to another with the later machines. There were some minor redesigns (like the canopy), but the first J-7IIs were still extremely basic and pathetically equipped aircraft.

The J-7III or J-7C/D was a reversed-engineered Mig-21MF which came from Egypt (along with a MiG-23.) It was never a major program. There were only about 30 in total.

I think the number you give is too low. I think at least two regiments operate(d) the bignose J-7s (one J-7III and one J-7IV?), with a few spares/trials machines i’d say some 50 to 70 were built.

So the turnaround for the J-7 was NOT the Soviet MiG-21Fs that China supposedly took during the Vietnamese war in the 1960s and which are nearly identical to the crappy J-7I and NOT the MiG-21MF which led to the dead-end J-7C/D, it was the J-7II redesign.

Nope, it was because small avionics became available to China in the late 1980s, like Grifo radars and the like. Being able to cram a radar and a reasonable comms set in an airframe like the J-7 saved the aircraft for almost 15 years. I’m not entirely sure on the details, but i think Pakistan’s order for -7Ps (which was an improvement over the still primitive J-7IIx exports made earlier in the 1980s) was actually the breaking point. Add in the post-Tienanmen boycot and the subsequent demise of quickly available modern jets to replace the J-6es, and i personally think that only then the current generation of modernised J-7Es became really interesting for the PLAAF.

Another great factor in the J-7’s history was Westernization – westernization of both the manufacturing equipment at Chengdu and also in the plane’s design and instruments during the late 70s and early 1980s. IFF, RWR and ECM were put in during this phase.

The F-7 Airguard (export name, not NATO designation) which came out then had Skyranger range finder, HUDWAC and Magic and Sidewinder capatibility.

The J-7E of today incorporated more changes with a different wing type.

The history is clear, the further the J-7 went away from the Russian original, the more viable it became.

Duh – the J-7 went away from the MiG-21 because time tends to be not a static thing. I think it’s both a combination of Western cooperation with China until 1989 AND the breakup afterward kept the J-7 an important fighter for China. The airframe itself was always a very limited one, and i’m pretty sure that if something more viable was available (which there simply wasn’t), J-7 production and development would have been canned some 10-15 years ago already.

Et voila… http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=30169

Myria is a sole example with a second example about 70% built in Kiev awaiting funds to be completed, although if 073 gets nailed it’s not looking good with the loss of revenue!!

MYRIA

It’s Mriya, not Myria. It’s the Ukrainian word for dream.

No, then post it in the miscellaneous pic thread. This one’s closed to prevent a whole series of look-what-pic-i-found-while-webbrowsing threads which all look alike.