Okay, i’m going to go at this sentence by sentence now, it seems some people suddenly get dyslexic if their favourite country is at stake :rolleyes:

PAF Fan,

The fact that Sov SU-25s, SU-22s, MIG-21s and MIG-23s did not get off on air to air missile says more about teh PAF then it does about the sovs, as you can see from teh ACIG article I posted, in many encounters, PAF aircraft were in fact heavily outnumbered….

Perhaps the fact that the Soviet aircraft did not get any AAM off their rails was because of two well documented reasons you are grotesquely ignoring here:
-1- Soviet fighters did not carry air-to-air armament during the Afghan war, since the Mujahedeen did not have any aircraft.
-2- Soviet fighters were not allowed to engage in combat with the PAF. They were ment to evade and flee.
While the same can’t be said for the DRAAF (i’ve interviewed the one-time commander of that air force), the only aircraft they used with AA weaponry was the MiG-21 which flew occasional pro-forma defensive patrols along the borders with Pakistan and Iran. I don’t know of any clashes of them with the PAF though.

The ACIG article is a list of shootdowns, claims, and damaged airframes. How you manage to read those as “in many encounters, PAF aircraft were in fact heavily outnumbered” is way beyond my reading skills. Not that it matters, going up against 50 aircraft which weren’t allowed nor equipped to shoot at you isn’t all that special.

PLA,

We all know from even recent reports that it is hard to say where Afghanistan starts and Pakistan ends. US bombs have fallen inside Pakistan and some of you do not know that some parts are still disputed between Afghanistan and Pakistan. So for a fighterjet flying fast and high one is risking a lot when flying on the border.

Dankjewel. That’s what i’ve been saying all along. Soviet or DRAAF aircraft entering Pakistani airbase did so by accident, and not with the intention to attack Pakistan as some continue to claim but have never yet backed up.

And there were plenty of airspace violations across the Inner German Border by the way – some ended up in shootdowns or crashes (that Flogger was in Belgium), many did not. Not the issue here.

The mujhahideen were located in Pakistan and supply routes started inside pakistani terrirory.

I know this, the same logic which gave the US an excuse to fight the Vietnam war on Laotian and Cambodian soil would have given the Soviets an excuse to fight Pakistan. But, again, i don’t know of at least the VVS or DRAAF doing so.

Do I have to give you pictures or do you accept simple logic about the fact that Russian jets did strike Pakistani positions? In ACIG report is is all about Russian jets attacking Pakistan and being shot down inside Pakistan.

Yes, do give me pictures and reports of Soviet air attacks on Afghanistan. It would answer my questions, rather than continued shouting that it did occur without coming up with even the smallest suggestion of evidence. I fail to see the ‘simple logic’ of Soviet air attacks on Pakistan if the simple FACTS i know dispute that so-called simple logic.

I am honestly starting to feel insulted by you guys. I don’t have any problem with a good debate, but you keep insisting that i should be convinced that the accidental VVS/DRAAF incursions of Pakistani airspace are solid proof of deliberate air attacks on Pakistan. I’m not an idiot, so i don’t accept it as evidence.

A simple link plus a quote please, it will be nice to discuss something more than just delusions.

Originally posted by google
Wow. How. Did. This. Thread. Get. 1.9.7. Posts. Already?

Well, it’s an interesting subject for starters. And i have to ask my question again and again 😉
It’s interesting to know by the way that one of the Tu-22M3 pilots who partook in the 1988/1989 bombing offensive against the Khost region (and hence definately intruded Pakistani airbase) was the later general and Chechen leader Dzhokhar Dudayev. Just for those who brought in the Chechen conflict into this thread 😀

Here are some Backfires at Mary-2, their staging base for ops over Afghanistan.

PLA,
The linked piece of text, from pakdef.info, is a literal transcription of the WAPJ article i mentioned above. The two pics are in that article too – the pilot is SqnLdr. Athar Bokhari who shot down Rutskoi.

In the Broken Wing article, the sentence “On the late afternoon of 4 August 1988, a section of Su-24s was underway to attack an Afghan refugee camp near Miranshah.” doesn’t make much sense (even apart from the obvious variant error) and smells like a terrible spin. How would anyone know beforehand this section of aircraft was ‘underway to attack and Afghan refugee camp near Miranshah’? Unless there was access to Soviet mission planning, the planes were flying in the direction of Miranshah. Which makes perfect sence – Miranshah is just across the border from Khost, where the Soviets undertook some of the most massive airstrikes of the war. Just like the Americans did some fifteen years later, the big difference being that the US did have permission to overfly Pakistani airspace.

MiG Master, PAF Fan,
Please lighten up, there is no need to get all insulted or irritable just because i ask you guys to give some facts and figures in stead of sentimental non-info. Also, please READ my postings. I never denied Soviet aircraft did incurse Pakistani airspace, and neither do i deny Pakistan’s right to have a go at shooting the intruders down. But what i want you guys to come up with is data that the Soviets DELIBERATELY BOMBED TARGETS ACROSS THE PAKISTANI BORDER. You are suggesting that throughout the entire thread, yet i don’t know of any of such incidents.

And as for rubbish like “Soveits Faced PAF they shot more then 40+ be it they were no Match..and soveiiits had nothing to show..
“, please stop being an ostritch and get your head out of the sand. Of the EIGHT confirmed PAF kills during the Afghan war, only THREE were Soviet aircraft, the rest were DRAAF. It’s perfectly fine with me if you want to feel proud of this or that airforce, but don’t let that pride make you disregard facts or even a sane debate.

Yes, Rutskoi’s Frogfoot-wing is on display – but at Kamra. Sarghoda has an Afghan Su-22 tailfin.

However, i fail to see a piece of Rutskoi’s Su-25 being on display on a PAF base is evidence for Soviet air attacks on Pakistani soil. Please elaborate…

Are there any backups for the claims that refugee camps inside Pakistan were attacked by the Soviets? It would be the first time i’ve heard from it.

Basically, the Pakistani position vs the Soviet Union during the Afghan War was nearly identical as the Chinese position vs. the US during the Vietnam War. Both superpowers lost aircraft to enemies they weren’t at war with, were not to enter, and were not to engage. Courtesy of poor navigation (and helped pretty much by targets in the vicinity of the border), China scored a number of kills against the US, and Pakistan scored a few kills against the Soviets and Afghans. Big deal.

How this could translate into a heroic defence of the PAF against a Soviet onslaught is beyond me. And suggesting An-26s were potential bombers on an attack run is really putting too much hope on the gullibility of people reading that, PAF fan!

Besides, the only time real Soviet borders operated in the Pakistan/Afghan border region (and either ingressed or egressed towards their targets through Pakistani airspace), the bombers operated with impunity because for those planned incursions, the Soviets did make sure their aircraft were safe. Thinking that they would’t have done so on other occasions is just silly. It has been suggested though by the PAF that the An-26 was on an ELINT mission, which is slightly more likely (except for the fact that there were more populair aircraft for such missions, and that there were 21 fatalities in the crash).

An interesting read from a Pakistani viewpoint is in WAPJ #10, the article ‘Pakistan border battles’ y Linsey Peacock. While not without errors (Rutskoi being referred to as “Colonel Alexandrov” as the most unforgivable one), it has some details on a few engagements. It also mentions the second wreck-memorial: at Sarghoda there is a horizontal tail from an Afghan Su-22. The Su-25-wing at Kamra was mentioned here i believe.

Brilliant pics – the company of photographers on this board is getting more impressive every month. Welcome aboard!

Well, the prototype i was in did not have a crew rest area like the E-3 has – but then again i doubt you’ll find it in any of the smaller AEW/AWAC birds either. Of course, there was lots of stuff inside the prototype having to do with actual testing so i’m sure there is more room available in the standard A-50s.