Having a bayonet stabbing in my neck while the gun itself is being cocked, and subsequently being smashed to the ground by another rifle’s butt – and then laying there for one and a half hour while all sorts of bugs crawl into your clothes.

Actually, it wasn’t. Ending up single was actually much worse.

I didn’t say i didn’t owe anything to the people surrounding me: i definately do, as does everybody else.

Sure, i love my family. But not because they’re Dutch. I love them for what they did for me. Do i love my country for the education i got? Well, perhaps i went to school in Belgium – pretty normal in the area where i come from. Work? Been looking for jobs across the border as well.

But the people around me are people whom i know by name, looks, character, oddities and everything. That is also the basis on which i respect them, or are friends with them.
Nowhere in all of this do i see the importance of nationality.

Again, if i was born in Iran out of similarly loving and educated parents, i don’t think there would be much of a factual difference in the amount of love, food, attention, care, tenderness and upbringing i would have recieved. And i would love them to the same extent. The country where this happened isn’t of any importance, except for the level of wealth available in that country. Sure, i am lucky to have been born in the Netherlands since it’s a very wealthy country with lots of institutions i appreciate – partly because they are nice, partly because i was brought up with them and hence don’t know any better. But again, i didn’t have anything to do with being born and most certainly did not have a saying in where i was to be born. Neither has an Iranian, Indian or Pakistani child. And even though all of those countries are obviously less wealthy than the country where i come from, the people from those countries i know do manifest themselves as patriotic people.

It definately has a lot to do with the fact that, from childhood on, i hardly ever spent a week without crossing a border. Spend lots of time in Belgium and Germany (both withing cycling distance) and guess what? Similar people, similar standards, the only difference was the colour of the license plates and other oddities which in my opinion have absolutely nothing to do with the people per se. So why bother with drawing a line in the sand, saying ‘Here be Netherlands’ and ‘Here be Belgians?’ Or ‘Here be United States of America’ and ‘Here be Canada’?

With borders all across the world being often so arbitrary, i still can’t see a genuine foundation for patriotism except a psychological urge to belong to a group. Your country is of course an easy club to ‘join’, as (unless you’re an immigrant) you haven’t got to do anything to become a member. You pay the membership fee (taxes – no, i won’t go saying the cheaper clubs have the strongest backing :devil: ), you abide the rules (the laws and customs), and if you want to you can even join another club where either the fee is lower or where the club leaders are more to your likings (some clubs really have bullying leaders though). I think it’s more or less the same as a religion: the bulk of all religious people were ‘born’ into a religion, the exception of course being those who willfully converted to another faith.
Yet masses of people born into a certain religion are absolutely sure their religion holds the Truth, and worships the Real God(s). Their feelings will sure be genuine, but i don’t think the origin of those feelings will survive a closer look. I think the same can be said about patriotism.

Perhaps other people make more of a mental issue of a national border than i do (sorry for sounding like an arrogant pr!ck), and do i fail to understand that mental image. Could be – but then i beg forgiveness for my ignorance.

And Vortex, i won’t interpret your post to the point where you could suggest those people don’t have the ‘right’ to be patriotic, as their countries are certainly less wealthy than the US, the Netherlands or the UK – i think you’re above such supremacist suggestions.

PS: Vortex, I fail to see how you can call “I did it all by myself, i don’t owe anybody anything” a typically leftist thing. Even if i had said it in my previous post, it would definately be one of the most rightist remarks i had ever made – individual responsibility and such 😉

Alastair,
I’m far from being patriotic. I happened to be born in the Netherlands rather than in France, Russia, Malaysia, Iran or the US. Big f****ng deal if you ask me – there’s nothing to be proud of something which just happened to you by chance.

Although i can see some benefits of patriotism (enough eager cannon fodder to send to the Somme, for example), i sometimes wonder if some patriots don’t just try to compensate their lack of self esteem and personal gratification by hiding behind their country’s flag. I’m sure not all patriots are like that, but i have a gut feeling that quite a few self-proclaimed patriots only call themselves that to prevent themselves from being pathetic lozers.

Just my humble opinion though.

A little better, but still not worthy the time i spent reading that sentence.

I’m sure you can do better – i know your writing skills are there. After all, you are the authors of postings which not only suggest the sound of a flushing toilet, but also give a sense of smell telling that the toilet should have been flushed many warm days prior to that.

See? Now it’s your turn again.

Snowman,

I didn’t intend it to be a gratuitous insult, but more of a to-the-point annoyance for the person trying to be impressive with the suggestive “And its not me…I swear!” – remark. I posted the pics just to make sure he knew what he was talking about. Not a slur against a whole nation, only against an individual.

As for my comments to the pictures… hey, i really think that Marine looks awfully bright, and if i would meet a 12-year old girl looking like that, i would certainly do my best to recognise her as being one.

TTP,

I think you, and other as well, don’t do GarryB or any of the other so-called ‘Anti-Americans’ any justice by simply interpreting each and every word typed down as an anti-American slur. The fact is, by doing so continually (sometimes justified, other times definately not) all you do is create more resentment towards the US – worse still, you take it beyond the realms of politics and make it personal.

Let me give you an example:
Person X posts something like this:
“I think the involvement of the US in (pick a country) is not a good idea because (pick a reason).
Person Y, a rabidly proud and nationalistic American, replies:
“It is a good idea. We are liberating that country! Who are you to question American actions anyway – you come from a no-good-doing insignificant country anyway!”

And there we are, in stead of having a non-personal debate on global issues, we get into a slur between someone trying to defend his/her country on a personal level while the original issue is getting ignored.

A personal question: you said you wouldn’t mind throwing out Al Qaida suspects out of the back of your C-141 when flying. Fair enough, that’s your opinion and while i’m repulsed by it (and i really, really have to restrain myself about making comments about Argentinian, Chilean or USArmy-in-Vietnam helo pilots) i can understand how you come to think like that.
One question thoug. Would you have thrown that all-American John Walker Lindh kid out as well?

Had oysters once, really liked them but part of the fun was the situation…
[stupid anecdote]
It was on a spotting trip to Cazaux (south-western part of France, there was a LIVEX exercise going on plus of course the Singaporese Skyhawks, great fun!), when we decided the nearest decent town to get something to eat and a place to sleep was Arcachon, on the Atlantic coast.
Lots of fun, especially since the Festival of Feminine Film was going on… imagine a bunch of very smelly, hairy, dirty and extremely masculine guys slurping down oysters in a restaurant otherwise filled with Feminine Film Fans…
[/stupid anecdote]

As for the worst food i’ve ever eaten: i think it must have been some strange cold stroganoff-esque liver dish in Latvia once. The first two bites weren’t all that bad as i managed to swallow the bits in all, but by the time my mouth had discovered the texture of the food it was eating… a gag and choke with every bite.

The food which made me feel worst was actually simple MacDonald’s stuff. I was really hungry and tired, and at some point it was time to get at least something to eat – not taking too much time, it was on the way home from yet another spotting trip. So we decided we take a burger at McD (i think the one near the E25 at Metz).
The food itself got down well, tasted typically bland-greasy-not-too-bad like any McD food, and since i was really hungry (hadn’t eaten anything apart from a bit of bread at breakfast, more than a fully circled clock earlier) i ate it really fast.
But after half an hour or so, i had this terrible feeling my stomache was tasting renowned McD flavour. It really felt like i had a lump of that food deep inside my body. First i found it only a bit funny, and luckily i didn’t get nauseous (hardly ever do). But when the feeling lasted until i fell asleep later, and lingered on for a full three more days, i did get absolutely repulsed by that food. Never ate at a McD again.

Here’s one waiting for a similar experience with Burger King…

As for the Tibetans: i guess some people will only be happy when Tibetans are liberated to live in reservations where they can survive by running casino’s and selling tax-free sigarettes.