RE: What car do you currently drive?
My crusty old Peugot 205 is just back from the mechanic today (the clutch & gearbox-God seems to have a grudge against me), so it’ll have to soldier on for some time again now…
RE: F-94 Tribute
The idea was that the F-89 would fly really far out and maintain patrol and if the Russians got past them, they would deal with the
F-94 at medium ranges, and then the F-86D handled all the
things really close in.
It’s a nice scenario, but the bombers the US feared in the 1950s (i have a ‘Soviet Bomber recognition guide’ from the early 1950s, it is absolutely hilarious with the weirdest non-existing aircraft…) were thought to be highly subsonic and flying at high altitudes (it was of course the pre-SAM era). If an intruding aircraft had passed the F-89 screen, it would literally have to fly into the arms of already airborne and on-station Starfires for the latter to be effective. It just didn’t have the speed to position itself for a rocket attack against a bomber unless the unfortunate bomber flew straight at the Starfire.
On the other hand, the F-94’s endurance on-station (which means at the high altitude the bombers were expected to come) was pretty low since a lot of the fuel would have been burned with climbing. The F-86D/K/L suffered even more of this, but they did have the climbing speed to be used as defensive interceptors with a QRA-start: taking off, immediately climbing to the target, shoot, and head back.
It is interesting to know BTW that the operational doctrine of the US’ ADC and NORAD were almost exactly the same as that of the Soviet IA-PVO, including the little input expected from the pilots.
RE: Pic Of The Day-DC 6!
Yeah, cool! I didn’t know Saddam used DC-6es to spray his rebellious villages }>
(yes, i know that’s a sick joke but the houses in the background made it all too easy).
RE: F-94 Tribute
Also, I read that the armament and fire control system of
the Starfire was considered more accurate than that of the
F-86D.
In the early days, none of the systems were really accurate and the Sabre Dog’s radar was no good either. But at least those could be fixed, as the later modified F-86L’s proved.
I also read that once the radar problems were ironed out, it
was a good system.
Indeed, after a while the E-5 readiness passed the 15%. I wouldn’t qualify this as ‘good’. Also, the crew-blinding after the launch of the rockets, and the additional engine flameouts after smoke ingestion, were simply solved by not using the nose rocket tubes. Brilliant solution…
I don’t think the aircraft was all that sluggish compared to
the F-86 except for climb rate maybe.
Now you finally get it! It couldn’t climb as fast as the fighter used for point-defence (the Sabre), it didn’t have the loiter time to fly patrols like the Scorpion. Now with this in mind, do you think there was much operational value of having the F-94???
I guess I’m just a stickler for anything F-80 related.
I know, and that’s fine with me but no matter how much you like this-or-that aircraft, you should be able to face the facts about an aircraft. Even if an aircraft is not all that bad in itself, it’s operational value can still be highly debatable because of competeting aircraft or other reasons. Like in this case.
RE: T-33 Tribute
Until their very recent retirement, the CT-133’s of the RCAF
practiced ACM against the RCAF’s fleet of CF-18’s.
Apparently, they were pretty good opponents too, their small
size and good agility being key factors.
PII, the name RCAF is outdated by some four decades now. It’s CAF or CF, although they are still part of the commonwealth the royal has been dropped. And as i told you before: the CT-133s were NOT used for ACM but for ECM training. Prior to the retirement the Canadians used their CF-5s in the agressor role, and after the retirement they moved into DACT with the Americans and Europeans deployed at Goose Bay. Using T-birds as ACM opponents for modern-day fast jets would be a joke anyway as it is hardly a serious combat scenario. ECM training, not ACM.
RE: MiG-15/17/19
Thanks Arthur,I never realised they were so close to
home!Glad someone agrees with my tastes 🙂
Flagons are perhaps an acquired taste, but one i don´t want to miss! Unfortunately i´ve never seen one fly, but a few colleague-spotters made me green with envy when they told me they had seen a few Ukrainian ones fly into storage at Bila Tserkva… But they have been even closer: in 1978 there was a deployment of Flagons at Slupsk in Poland…
Would I be right in comparing the role of the Su-15 to the
BAC Lightning?
Very much the same role. You can add the F-104S and F-106 in the same league too.
Do you have any pictures of the camouflaged examples?? I’ve
only ever seen one camouflaged Flaggon and that was in a
two-tone light grey scheme which looked rather neat.Would
have to say the natural metal examples looked better
though.:)
I guess you have never seen a camouflaged one then? They look really menacing, with their dark-greens and brown mottled scheme. Unfortunately i can´t find a pic on the web so you´ll have to do with this metallic one.
Attachments:
RE: MiG-15/17/19
Agree completely on the Su-15 Ant! By far the best and most purposeful looking interceptor ever. I´m not sure which ones i like the most: the shiny metallic ones, or the beutifully camouflaged ones, all with different spectaculair mottled colour schemes. The latter were not as rare as often stated: when i was at Rzhev in 1996 (which is/was one of the PVO´s storage and demolition bases), of about 50 Flagons which were laying in the grass at least 20 were camouflaged.
I think the reason we don’t hear too much about them over here
is the fact that they were all based on the Eastern side of
the USSR,ready to face any American bombers coming accross
the Pacific.
In fact, most were stationed on ´our´ side of the USSR (although not directly at the border) and in the south, the number of bases in the FE isn´t all that big. European-Soviet bases like Belbek, Kramatorsk (both Ukraine), Rzhev, Gromovo, possibly Pushkin, Apatity, Petrozavodsk also had Su-15 units.
RE: Croatian Air Force in WW2
And perhaps some info on the operational use of Ante Pavelic (brrr…)´s air force?
RE: F-94 Tribute
Arthur, here are those pictures. The aircraft is F-94C #
51-13560. It is on display at the Minnesota Air National
Guard Museum. Apparently it was refurbished by the ANG at
Duluth before being put on display.
Thanks for putting it up. The fuel tanks seem to be genuine, but i doubt those tanks were used operationally because of drag. The other surviving C´s i´ve seen pics of (there are more: Pima, New England AM, Calspan and a few other places also house C models).
As far as the F-94’s performance is concerned, I think the C model was a fairly impressive aircraft. It had much better
performance than the A or B models.
Sure, but by the time the C model entered service the performance of the A and B models was below standards of the time.
It was immensely powerful, more powerful than the F-86D/L in fact.
But also draggier, slower, less responsive, and with an even less reliable radar.
climbed much faster than the A/B models, could climb to much higher altitudes, had much longer range, was much faster,
Again: compared to the by-then outdated F-94A and B models. Even the indeed vastly improved C could not offer the patrol endurance of the F-89, nor the responsiveness of the F-86. And while the other two interceptors still had quite a few options to be improved, the F-94C was already stretching the P-80 design far further than it was ever intended to be.
…and was very popular with both flight and ground crews alike once all the initial problems were ironed out.
Some problems never were ironed out: the radar never got to function reliably, and the ´shotgun´ firing of Mighty Mouse rockets from the nose launch-pack was so much of an area weapon that it could be said that a conventional cannon would be more accurate. Even worse, the nose-mounted rockets left a dense smokescreen around the cockpit blinding the crew for seconds after launch. I have little doubt it was a nice aircraft to fly and maintain airframe-wise (it sure wasn´t as much of an ergonomic nightmare as the F-89).
The A/B models were fairly popular as well from what I’ve read and heard. I don’t know that the F-94 was as bad as you’re making it out
to be. I’m just going from what I’ve heard though.
I don´t think it was a bad aircraft when seen from an airframe-and-equipment view for that time, but i can´t see it as more than an interim-AW-interceptor until the true useful types came around: the F-86D/K/L point-defence fighters, and the F-89 long-range patrol bird. It´s use in Korea was because it was the only operational aircraft in the neighbourhood at the time, and not because it was that good of a nocturnal escort fighter for B-29s as for which it was used. Only when the B-29s were started to get their escorts from F3D Skyknights the losses dropped dramatically, even though the F-94s of course did score a handful of kills. By then the F-94s were given nocturnal defensive sweep missions to counter Bedcheck Charlies in which it had a few successes too, but less than the F-82s which had a better speed for such missions.
Perhaps that is the problem of the F-94: it was simply less useful than the other US night-fighters of the pre-supersonic era. It was a fine aircraft, but it´s jack-of-all trades mission made it the master of none. It is no wonder that the F-94 left service almost ten years before the AW Sabres, Scorpions or even Skynights (although the latter flew it´s final decade as an ECM bird).
RE: MiG-15/17/19
One of the ways you can differentiate the Su-9 from the Su-11 is by looking at the armament.
Better to check the forward fuselage: the Su-11 has a much longer nose with a bigger intake and centrecone. However, the 11 is very rare (i believe less than 200 were built) and apart from the Monino example i´ve never seen one. But Su-9s can still be found either dumped or on display on many former PVO bases.
Back to the original topic: make mine a MiG-19 please! Although i really like the worn-off camouflaged Polish Lim5 and Lim6es at the end of their career (they still had one operational with the test unit at Modlin as late as 1995, the only operational one i´ve ever seen), i think the 19 looks just a bit tougher and meaner, and the fuselage extension between the engine nozzles is something i somehow really like. Just like the Su-9, plenty MiG-19s can be found in the former USSR nowadays while the number of MiG-15/17s seems to have dwindled quite extensively – probably because of all too optimistic DOSAAF pilots where they ended their service lives 😉
RE: What do you work as?
>Working as a universaty prof in 16th and 17th cent. history,
>sociology and literature (even I agree this is very, very
>boring).To compensate this, I also work as a (scientific)
>journalist, which gives me the action I miss in the daily
>job.
Hah, a fellow journo! I work fulltime as a journalist, partly as a civic reporter and partly as internet editor. I use planespotting and hanging round in bars to give me the action i miss in the daily job 🙂
RE: What do you work as?
>Working as a universaty prof in 16th and 17th cent. history,
>sociology and literature (even I agree this is very, very
>boring).To compensate this, I also work as a (scientific)
>journalist, which gives me the action I miss in the daily
>job.
Hah, a fellow journo! I work fulltime as a journalist, partly as a civic reporter and partly as internet editor. I use planespotting and hanging round in bars to give me the action i miss in the daily job 🙂
RE: F-94 Tribute
>Actually, I’ve found that when looking at the three
>pre-Century series USAF interceptors (F-86, F-89, & F-94)
>that the Starfire had better outright flight performance
>than the F-89, but not quite as good as the F-86, and its
>range wasn’t as far as the F-89, but wa much farther than
>the short-legged F-86.
Which is one of the main reasons the F-94 was essentially ineffective. The F-86 had the performance to be a point-defence interceptor, while the F-89 had the range to fly patrols. The F-94 lacked the performance for the point-defense role, while it was far too short-legged for the patrol work the F-89 could do. Not that it mattered of course as the Soviet bombers they were ment to shoot down didn’t exist }>
A pic of the wing pylons would be nice. But would it be possible that the aircraft was given the wing of an F-80 or T-33 for restoration purposes (it can’t be a Starfire in this case though)? There are quite a few museums around which don’t mind historical inaccuracies of this kind, notwithstanding the confusion it could cause… A check on the serial number might help in this case, probably even a simple google search will do.
RE: Huh????
Tsk, tsk, tsk…..
Okay, in order to get my ratings down:
you guys bitching against JC are just jealous. HAH!
}> }> }> }> }> }> }> }> }> }>
Seriously, James:
i don’t think there’s much use of such popularity contests here. It’s nice to flatter or befriend people if you’re into that, but such a thread will not do justice to an awful lot of excellent posters who have better things to do but spend their time here. Equally, there will be plenty of people dissapointed for not appearing in your (or anybody else’s) list which i don’t think is worth it. Remember that this is just a virtual community where everyone can pretend to be who-knows-what while being an axe murderer in everyday life. I know i’ll be getting my machete out as soon as i log off. Those poor elderly ladies never knew what hit ’em }>
RE: Huh????
Tsk, tsk, tsk…..
Okay, in order to get my ratings down:
you guys bitching against JC are just jealous. HAH!
}> }> }> }> }> }> }> }> }> }>
Seriously, James:
i don’t think there’s much use of such popularity contests here. It’s nice to flatter or befriend people if you’re into that, but such a thread will not do justice to an awful lot of excellent posters who have better things to do but spend their time here. Equally, there will be plenty of people dissapointed for not appearing in your (or anybody else’s) list which i don’t think is worth it. Remember that this is just a virtual community where everyone can pretend to be who-knows-what while being an axe murderer in everyday life. I know i’ll be getting my machete out as soon as i log off. Those poor elderly ladies never knew what hit ’em }>