Rookhthe fuselage of the FC-1 was clearly derived from the Super-7 concept. the Super Hornet like LERX was a very late addition, after the FC-1 had already flown.
you can yourself make out the similarities in the FC-1 design and the MiG-21 clone J-7 here and compare it also the Super-7 design shown here
the fuselage shape is very similar, with the major changes being in the radome and side mounted air-intakes.
Read the caption underneath the pic of the FC-1 in the article, it states the FC-1 is the successor to the Super-7. Can you fit an RD-93 into the fuselage of a J-7 (Mig-21F13 derivative)?
It’s a common mistake, assuming the FC-1/JF-17 was based on the original Super Sabre/Super-7, which was simply a reworking on the Mig-21/J-7 airframe. That project was abonded, in favour of a new design, some say based on a previous Mig proposal for a LFI in the 80s, which was later cancelled due to shifting strategies in the VVS for larger, long range multi-role aircraft (advanced version of Su-27 family).
Rookhand yet the basic MiG-21 influence as well as the influence of the Super-7 are quite clearly visible. It may not be just a modified MiG-21, like that Chinese trainer FTC-2000, but its not a brand new design either. it still has clear influences from the original project.
Can you elaborate on what these ‘clear influences’ are? The LERX perhaps? The DSI? The cropped delta wing? The glass cockpit? What are the ‘basic Mig-21 influences’? A fuselage, wing, tail and cockpit?
RookhDoes Pakistani Erieye can datalink to JF-17?
Currently, no. But it can datalink to the ZDK-03. Erieye is primarily for datalinking with the Block-52 F-16s.
But don’t have it now. Aircraft without any BVR is useless this days. Gripen already is flying with Meteor.
The JF-17 is currently testing with the SD-10A BVR missile.
And? SAAB is also constanly developing more advanced avionics for Gripen so the gap will stay the same.
Indeed, in so far as the gap between Swedish aerospace tech and Chinese aerospace tech. It seems that the JF-17 will continue to have Chinese derived avionics/radar/weapons. Given the rapid development in Chinese aerospace tech, the gap will narrow, but there will remain a gap, so it’s relative.
RookhTej footprint is clearly visible.
Tej? :confused: I assume you’re referring to the Mig-21? If so, how is it’s footprint clearly visible in the JF-17? Perhaps mid-mounted delta with conventional tail plane? That could be virtually most fighter layouts? Can you fit an RD-93 into the Mig-21 fuselage?
RookhJF-17 is just MiG-21 with some features upgraded…
I don’t think the current JF-17 airframe has much to do with the Mig-21. The original Super-7/Super Sabre project included a highly modified Mig-21 airframe, adding new wings and side intakes, almost similar to the JL-9/FTC-2000 trainer. But with the high costs and the consultancy work from Grumman being cancelled due to the Tiananmen Square incident, this project was cancelled.
Rookhseems like a half-baked FBW, digital FBW in yaw, analog in yaw and none in pitch.
It’s analogue in yaw and roll, quadruplex digital in pitch.
RookhPakistan always seem to prefer Western equipment if possible.
That may be true historically, but going forward, this is likely to change. In part due to improving and maturing Chinese technology, and due to the PAFs wish of less exposure to potential sanctions from the West.
IMHO, the recent acquisition of Block-52 F-16s may well be the last big ticket items to be acquired by the PAF from the West. The recent AFM article on the JF-17 had, according to PAF sources, suggested that the Chinese solution for radar/avionics/weapons, was comparable, if not superior in some aspects, to the French offer.
RookhRisky for sure. But prolly the least risky option of “the Major Players” (Save PRC). So what is left then? Israel and SA make a lot of nice toys, and sell to whomever can cash up. But they dont have the major hardware Pakistan needs. Only major player left is Sweden. But shes bound by very strict export laws, so no idea to even try it.
Were I a PAF general I’d ty to swallow my pride and try to mend the diplomatic ties with Iran. Say what you want about them but they have some how managed to pull off some rather impressive technological stunts lately, despite global sanctions. Good engineers the Iranis. Clever ppl. Best integrated minority group here in Sweden by far. MDs and dentists rather than pizza chefs/clerks where I live.
Turkey could make an very valuable partner as well. But the problem is Pakistan hasnt mouch to offer Turkey in return really.
I think both Israel and South Africa have major hardware that could be of interest to Pakistan. However, Pakistan doesn’t have any diplomatic relations with Israel, not sure if it even recognises it yet, so that’s not an option. The JF-17 is supposedly planned to be integrated with some form of the Darter series of missiles from South Africa, and possibly other avionics from Denel/Kentron, not to mention the previous occassions of license manufacture of South African weapons such as the H-series of stand-off weapons.
I’m not sure if Iran offers anything that is of interest to Pakistan. Due to sanctions and restrictions, they’ve concentrated on reverse engineering mostly 70s era US hardware.
RookhI don’t think any French solution for avionics/engines for the JF-17 is an option at this stage, for a number of reasons. The French have made it clear that they’re not really interested, and even if they were, I doubt whether the PAF could afford it. It will cost quite a bit to integrate the M-88 or French avionics at this stage, not to mention the time required. The PAF can barely afford the initial orders of the JF-17, the first 50 were funded by loans from the Chinese with ‘very reasonable premiums’ and the second batch were ‘gifted on an emergency basis’, whatever that means…let alone even consider expensive French kit. I doubt whether the French would offer the same financial backing as the Chinese do.
For now, it seems as though the RD-93 will power the JF-17, with the WS-13 being the likely future powerplant if rumours of recent testing in a JF-17 airframe are to be believed.
RookhCompletely OT, but I thought Belgium and NL had sold off most of their redundant F-16s to Chile and Jordan allready?
So it’s completely off-topic to discuss PAF acquisitions in the PAF thread??!! :confused:
On topic: As Haavarla has pointed out all ready, the Pakistani Gov. is between a rock and a hard place in this sittuation. And has been so ever since the WOT started. So far this war has cost Pakistan a lot, but not generated mouch positive things in return.
The majority of the ppl dont want Taliban rule in Pakistan of course, but dont want to see too close ties with the US either. So the gov. is damned if they do and damned if they dont, sort of. Factor in a semi independent inteligency service that has its own agenda and a lot of muscles to enforce it, and you have a truly toxic mix.
So it’s completely on topic to discuss politics and socioeconomics in the PAF thread??!! :confused:
RookhYep, I certainnly think politics perhaps plays a significant part of the decision making process 🙂
I always thought the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) F-15SG was the most advanced version and wasn’t there some kit not allowed on the Saudi F-15SAs due to objections from Israel?
RookhSame reason as always, same reason as Saudi Arabia: less dependence. If the UAE only buys American, the USA will restrict the weapons the UAE has, & limit their operational use. That is not speculation: it’s what’s actually happened – and to the Saudis.
The French (& British) are less restrictive. When the USA is losing sales to France, or whoever, it also becomes less restrictive. Therefore, the UAE is likely to continue to operate two types, in order to get freedom from US restrictions & sanctions, access to technology the USA will not sell, & US weapons which would otherwise not be available to it. Exactly the same as Saudi Arabia.
Sure, being less reliant on a single source is valid enough, but if the UAE was concerned about such issues, why commit itself to the US/F-16 to the extent of actually funding the development of the ‘World’s most advanced’ Viper? Doesn’t seem the most cost effective solution if there are concerns of restrictions of use and being subjected to the whims of a foreign power.
And it still hasn’t stopped Saudi Arabia from placing ~USD 60bn worth of new orders with the US either, including more F-15s, which aren’t the most advanced versions available.
RookhIs it possible for Pak to get F-16 upgrades parts/kits from other countries beside US?
Perhaps procure older F-16 from say countries like Holland?
I’m not sure if that is entirley possible. The PAF Block-15 aircraft are being upgraded to Block-50/52 avionics standard. That’s quite a jump in terms of F-16 blocks and capability. I’m not sure if there’s any source other than the US for such an avionics package upgrade?
IIRC, the PAF did evaluate the Dutch and maybe the Belgian (?) F-16s, but these were deemed as too far gone in terms of airframe condition to be worth taking on.
RookhFurther, to not supply the parts for the MLU would be a breach of contract.
I don’t think the Americans care too much about breach of contract, remember the fiasco in the early 90s with cut-off of F-16s and P-3Cs which Pakistan had paid for? I guess you could term that situation as breach of contract as well.
RookhOne more factor is t he MLU is being carried out in Turkey. PAF mitigated against this risk and was fain to send the F-16s to the US. Good call.
I think the PAF initially wanted to perform the Block-50/52 avionics upgrade to the legacy Block-15 aircraft at PAC in Pakistan. IIRC, it was US insistance that this be done outside Pakistan, and perhaps Turkey was selected as a compromise.
Although, it’s worth remembering that the upgrade kits still come from the US, and work has only recently commenced in Turkey. If relations deteriorate further and sanctions are slapped in place again, then there may be some serious issues for the PAF.
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