RookhSorry, it´s a wrong number… Mectron(in off) said that is much more than this.
Ola Adelphi, could you provide any further details on the MAR-1 or know of any sources with further details? It’s a very interesting missile and something quite exotic compared to the usual types in service around the world.
RookhWho knows? If the US asks for the wreckage back, there’s no reason why the Pakistanis should refuse. It’s not as if the wreckage is of any use to the Pakistanis, I mean, like if they have a stealth helicopter programme! Besides, if it ends up in China, it’s pretty obvious where it came from.
RookhYes, it appears to be the tail rotor, I don’t think it could be the main rotor. If those trucks are anything to go by, they may have a more significant amount of wreckage than previously thought. Also, note the RAM material with its distinctive gloss grey/silver finish.
RookhSome more pics of the mistery chopper;
RookhPakistani eyewhitnesses claimed the “technical malfunction” was caused by an RPG hit while hoovering over the target.
Have you been reading PakDef? 🙂 The latest piece of genious consensus is that the raid was actually conducted by the Pak army, they told the Yanks, who came in and swooped away OBL’s carcus.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-05/02/c_13854920.htm
ISLAMABAD, May 2 (Xinhua) — Pakistani Urdu TV channel Geo News quoted Pakistani intelligence officials as saying that the world’s most wanted terrorist Osama Bin Laden was killed in a search operation launched by the Pakistani forces after a Pakistani army helicopter was shot down in the wee hours of Monday in Abbotabad, a mountainous town located some 60 kilometers north of Pakistan’s capital city of Islamabad.
At about 1:20 a.m. local time a Pakistani helicopter was shot down by unknown people in the Sikandarabad area of Abbotabad. The Pakistani forces launched a search operation in the nearby area and encountered with a group of unknown armed people. A fire exchange followed between the two sides.
When the fire exchange ended, the Pakistani forces arrested some Arab women and kids as well some other armed people who later confessed to the Pakistani forces they were with Osama Bin laden when the fire was exchanged and Bin Laden was killed in the firing.
Local media reported that after the dead body of Bin Laden was recovered, two U.S. helicopter flew to the site and carried away the dead body of Bin Laden.
Initial reports said that at least one was killed and two others were injured in the crash. At least two houses were engulfed by the huge fire caused by the crashed chopper.
Rescue team rushed to the site shortly after the crash was reported and the armed forces cordoned off the area and launched a search operation there.
Sources of Xinhua said they tried to enter the area after the incident took place, but no media people were allowed inside.
“No one knows in that helicopter crash Bin Laden was killed,” said the sources.
Editor: Yang Lina
RookhIf this is true then Pakistan was aware of the raid, which would make the use of top secret stealth choppers not needed
Yep, that makes sense. And it seems the Pak foreign office is strongly denying that Ghazi base was used for refuelling;
http://www.mofa.gov.pk/Press_Releases/2011/May/PR_152.htm
But then the question arises, did the choppers have enough fuel? If they were refuelled, where? Could they have inserted an aerial refueller in Pak airspace too without the PAF knowing about it?
RookhYet another thread?! Why can’t this be discussed in the other thread?
RookhWhat sort of stealth would this helicopter have provided? Radar or Acoustic?
I doubt they would need a radar evading helicopter for missions in AF-Pak arena. It must be more of stealth in the visual /acoustic area.
Although having posted a comment on Pakdef forum that using a stealth helicopter proves that Pakistanis had no clue about the operation and the compound was an ex ISI safe house touched a raw nerve somewhere and I was banned within 10 minutes!
I agree with Fedaykin, if it’s based on the Comanche programme, then it will be based on all apsect stealth features. Would be fascinating to see the airframe. It does pose some serious questions regarding the PAF radar coverage though. However, would the choppers have had enough fuel for this mission of they did indeed fly in from Afghanistan?
Regarding PakDef…hardly surprising considering the conspiracy theories and utter mindless comments from most of the posters on the site. I’ve been banned several times in the past for asking sensitive questions, and with the current events, most of their members are now realising the reality. Best to avoid the site, or unless you feel like having a good laugh at some of the comments 🙂
RookhYes, it seems from a special operations point of view, that it would be useful to have a ‘stealth’ chopper. The question is whether both Russia and China feel the need to spend on the development of such a type. I think both may well see the benefit to justify such a programme.
RookhHi guys sorry for changing radically the subject here but how were the US able to effectively “invade” Pakistani airspace from Afghanistan with slow moving helicopters and evade without being shot down by Pak fighters in the process? (This is a legitimate question, no disrespect at all intended, OK? :))
Regards,
Hammer
Ola Hammer, I don’t see any disrespect 🙂
There seems to be some confusion as to the events. The pics of the strange ‘silent’ or ‘stealthy’ new Blackhawk type could explain how the US was able to enter Pakistani airspace undetected. In addition, perhaps they used ‘holes’ in PAF radar coverage and the natural mountainous terrain to mask themselves. However, some reports are claiming they had to refuel at one of the Pak army/air forces bases. Would Blackhawks be able to cover those distances without having to refuel?
RookhYeh…I was being rather tongue in cheek. There doesn’t appear to be much useful wreckage left, the bulk of the fuselage and avionics were probaby destroyed by the SEALS, leaving insignificant sections of the tail. I doubt the Pakistanis have the technical ability to have made much use of it anyway. It’ll probably end up in Chinese hands, but again, not sure how useful it would be to them.
RookhHere’s the link;
Stealth Helos Used In Osama Raid
Posted by Bill Sweetman at 5/3/2011 11:14 AM CDTWell, now we know why all of us had trouble ID’ing the helicopter that crashed, or was brought down, in the Osama raid.
It was a secretly developed stealth helicopter, probably a highly modified version of an H-60 Blackhawk. Photos published in the Daily Mail and on the Secret Projects board show that the helicopter’s tail features stealth-configured shapes on the boom and tip fairings, swept stabilizers and a “dishpan” cover over a non-standard five-or-six-blade tail rotor. It has a silver-loaded infra-red suppression finish similar to that seen on some V-22s.
No wonder the team tried to destroy it. The photos show that they did a thorough job – except for the end of the tailboom, which ended up outside the compound wall. (It almost looks as if the helo’s tail hit the wall on landing.)
Stealth helicopter technology in itself is not new and was applied extensively to the RAH-66 Comanche. Priorities are usually different versus fixed-wing aircraft. Reducing noise and making it less conspicuous is the first job (more main and tail blades reduce the classic whop-whop signature). Listen here.
Noise can also be reduced by aerodynamic modifications and flight control changes that make it possible to slow the rotor down, particularly in forward flight below maximum speed. Infra-red reduction measures are crucial — the Comanche had an elaborate system of exhaust ducts and fresh-air mixers in its tailboom.
Radar cross-section reduction is also possible – you can’t make a helo as radar-stealthy as a fixed-wing airplane, because of all its moving parts, but on the other hand it is generally operating at low altitude in ground clutter, and is not an easy target. Reducing RCS also makes jamming more effective, whether from the aircraft itself or from a standoff jammer.
The willingness to compromise this technology shows the importance of the mission in the eyes of US commanders — and what we’re seeing here also explains why Pakistani defenses didn’t see the first wave (at least) coming in.
Update: Quellish at Secret Projects mentions an ancestor system.
Read the Aviation Week article: Bin Laden Raid May Have Exposed Stealth Helicopter.
That could explain why the wreckage was moved away in covered trucks. It may also explain how they evaded PAF air defence radars, although there still seems to be some confusion; it appears they refuelled at a PAF/Pak army base after entering from Afghanistan? How long before this ends up in the labs of SAC or CAC? 😉
RookhContinue to build it’s top end IADS system support by AEW@c, strong networking and SAM capabilities, along with good fighter capability in F-16 Block 52+ and continue developmental efforts with JF-17 and support their endurance through air to air refuelling.
The difference between a Block 52+ F-16 and a Rafale or a Eurofighter is so small, that it will only effect nationalistic egos. The operational reality won’t be significantly different.
If Pakistan can afford it, continued purchases of Block 52+ F-16 and on-going development of JF-17 is likely to see their defence needs met very handsomely.
Buying a few “modern” fighters to “keep up with the joneses” is a fanboi solution to a problem. Not a professional defence response…
Completely agree with this and it does indeed seem as if the PAF are following this strategy. They can’t afford either the Typhoon or Rafale in any significant numbers, and they already have significant experience with the F-16 with the original infrastructure intended to support a large fleet of the type. There has been suggestions of further orders of F-16s, either excercising the option for the additional 18 Block-52s, or surplus USAF airframes upgraded to 50/52 standard. The PAF has also been increasing its exposure in major international excercises, in addition to the PLAAFs SU-27 derivatives. I think long term goals would be the continued development of the JF-17, a J-10/FC-20 derivative and/or any possible lower tier 5G Chinese solution, if funding allows.
RookhBattlefield nuke rocket artillery platform?
http://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?o=t-press_release&id=1721#pr_link1721
Video;
RookhI don’t think the A-5 was ever considered for strike purposes by the PAF, too limited in terms of avionics, range and payload; it was only ever considered for CAS/ground strike due to it’s armour. Although it was considered as a nuclear delivery option by the PLAAF, that version was never used by the PAF (had a belly intake for nuke, while PAF version had extra fuel tank instead).
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