AurelIn the end it is irrelevant if the Luftwaffe has an immidiate need for a 5g fighter. Without any new programme anywhere in sight there will be no local skillbase left to design and build a Typhoon replacement. KF-X is in my opinion the cheapest way to built a bridge into the future. And by accident the Luftwaffe may even end up with a useful weapon system.
Korea and Germany have very similar requirenments. As cheap as possible, full acces to source codes etc. and interoperability with NATO(US) forces.
AurelTo be honest not that many. There is some nebulous talk about UAV/UCAV as replacement, but with the latest Eurohawk fiasco and never ending ethic discussions about drone warfare in general drones may well be off the table. The current MOD is very pro UAV, but the financial hurdles of getting them certified for civilian airspace is a bit of a showstopper atm.
AurelSome good points brought up.
Past 2020, Germany becomes exclusively Eurofighter so no aircraft to replace until 2030 at least.
Not true. Eurofighter replaces Phantom and Tornado IDS in German service. So far no decision on the replacement of Recce and ECR Tornadoes. We are talking about 36-40 aircraft.
No economies of scale hence high cost. Salaries are also more expensive in both countries.
No idea what you are trying to say. Both assembly lines are running. SoKo has no requirenment for a local assembly line, they just want it cheap and delivered yesterday. Means German and Spanish assembly line secured for 2-3 years. A good thing in times of crisis. Guess Spain would be happy to offer production slots or even their T3 airframes.
Spain has EF-18s/AV-8B to replace and I think that F-35 might be the winner here and then nowhere close to 86 EF-18s + 18 AV-8B currently operated.
F-35 might be of interest for their carrier, but for everything else Eurofighter subsystems wrapped up in a stealthy airframe is at least an attractive proposal. The carrier so far had no practicle use and serves mostly as harbour ornament. I see why the Thais bought theirs from Spain. :highly_amused:
Bigger issue with Eurofighter is declining fighter sales since 1991, high cost of operation and attractiveness of countries plugging into F-35. KFX doesn’t resolve any of these, unless it’s cheaper to fly.
F-35 itself isn’t exactly cheap to operate. The KF-X would be NATO compatible but with considerably less black boxes and red tape made in USA.
And who would wear inevitable overruns?
There are no inevitable overruns. The KF-X is a low risk programme. Not that unlike to Gripen and to some extend PAK-FA. They design a new airframe, and avoid most of the issues with subsystem development. The decision is between sticking the guts of a F-18 or an EF into a new airframe. Both have their merits. But I wouldn’t expect the US to buy any KF-X, while I do see reasons for Spain and Germany to buy (a small number) of KF-X.
Time is running out for western legacy aircraft in the price bracket of EF or Rafale. Further more, participation in the development of KF-X would preserve skills otherwise lost. In case SoKo go with Typhoon/Cassidian, Cassidian would be responsible for the FCS of the new aircraft.
KF-X without internal weapons has no advantage over F/A-18E/F
I have to admit I think it is a rather strange approach. The Koreans want to have internal carriage on later blocks, while initially conformal carriage is planned. If the airframe is designed from the outset to accomodate weapon bays, why go for the equally complex speration systems first ? The airframe would have all the added structural weight without it’s benefits. :confused:
Coming back to the requirenments. I can only comment on Germany here, but I do believe there are good reasons to get a 5th generation capability. There are unresolved issues between the baltic states and Russia. Russia is now in the buiseness for it’s own 5th generation fighter.
Germany is involved in baltic air patrol, and has its NATO responsibilites. In case some of many conflicts between the Russian minority (often even without any citizenship !) and the local governments escalate, Germany has an interest to discourage Russian military intervention. (I’m not talking about a full scale war here between NATO and Russia !)
To achieve that politcal goal, Germany should have an answer to PAK-FA. Even if it is only for political willy waving.
AurelWell, most procurement projects in the EU are about retaining jobs and skills in the arms industry. Both Spain and Germany have so far a big fat nothing after the Typhoon production concludes.
Boeing is in all likelyhood winning the F-X III and is in a good position to become the development partner for the K-FX, too. A commitment of both countries to get involved in K-FX would change this.
The requirenment is in my opinion very simple, at least for Germany. An UAV as replacement for recce and ECR Tornadoes is pretty much dead after the euro hawk desaster. Plus, it would be highly desirable
to get something in the same league as the Russian T50, to discourage a “Georgian situation” in the baltic states.
Regarding costs: It would actually generate some postitive cashflow for both countries now, if SoKo would buy 60 EF. (Say 25 build in Spain and 35 in Germany for a quick delivery)
The K-FX would then become more or less a redressed EF. Which has several interesting effects.
1) subsystem improvements developed for KF-X could find their way back into the EF (MLU for example) and vice versa.
2) the EF would become more attractive for potential export customers. At the moment it is more or less an orphan aircraft.
3) on the other hand would this open the door for future KF-X exports to the gulf states f.e. Not the case if SoKo selects the Super Hornet as basis for it’s KF-X.
4) both Spain and Germany wouldn’t have to spend money on the KF-X development, most of it would be company funds.
I don’t think the crisis we see at the moment will last forever. And past 2020-25 there are aircraft to replace in both countries.
AurelGerman Tornado with nuke. Not many pictures around, altough JaboG 33 is still tasked with nuklear deterrence.
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AurelAmazing Weapons Loads – Tornado
As a bit of a change of the scenery on here, I thought it’d be fun to create a thread related to the Amazing Weapons Loads threads, but with the focus on one specific aircraft. Perhaps it could be fun to see what all people can come up with. Anything with weapons or other stores is welcome. Just pick something you think would be unique or otherwise fun for the forum to see and post it.
Yeah, I guess the opening post was totally misleading. I think I should post some photos of amazing ponys. Ya know, they are no bloody Tornado but hey, I like spamming pictures of them anyway. :stupid:
Edit: the promised pony:
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AurelTyphoons are not exactly cheap to run, even if they would be sold at discount prices. Countries able to keep them flying can afford new build and more capable T3 aircraft. Gripen on the other hand is a very interesting aircraft for airforces with a small budget. But then again I wouldn’t bother myself because of the amount of American blackboxes in it. (Could as well buy F-16 instead)
AurelUSSR/Russia: MiG-29, Tu-22M
USA: YF-23, SR-71
China: J-10A, J-10B
UK: TSR2, HP Victor
France: Mirage IV, Mirage 4K
Germany: Me 262, Eurofighter/TKF 90
Sweden: Viggen, Gripen NG
India: HF-24 Marut, –
Argentinia: IA Pampa, –
Israel: Lavi
Italy: Gina, –
Japan: Kikka, –
AurelImho a relatively cheap single engine fighter is exactly what MiG needs to survive. A single Al-31, 117s or whatever PAK-FA will get plus MiG-35 avionics in a new airframe. The MiG-29 isn’t that much cheaper to run compared to Su-27. Which explains the difference in commercial succes.
AurelIf I had to pick between the given choices I would go with the engines. The Shornet is a carrier aircraft, therefore more available thrust increases flight safety.
AurelWho fills the void of leaving US forces ? I’d say this is the underlying question we have to answer here in Europe. It is more about politics than military capability. On paper united Europe has more than enough conventional forces. But, is there enough commitment from European NATO members ?
I’d say no, and this will influence decisions in eastern Europe. Moscow gained influence. Mission accomplished RuAF.
AurelHey guys calm down please. The Rafale will in all likelyhood remain to be a better striker than Typhoon. Reason for this is the role it took over from the Mirage IV.
Nuclear strike has never been a consideration let alone design driver for Typhoon.
For CAS or BAI the Typhoon is at least as good as the Rafale.
AurelSwiss Parliament Committee Votes to Suspend Gripen Jet Purchase
AurelRegarding Germany: While the Typhoon is the official replacement of our IDS Tornadoes, there is no political will or money to expand it’s a2g capabilities.
Best example is JaboG 31. First fighter bomber sqadron to convert to Typhoon. They didn’t drop a single a2g weapon since conversion in 2009/10. All they do is the bare minimum to keep the pilots qualified on the type.
Situation will improve a bit in the future, but best you can expect is integration of laser JDAM and maybe Taurus.
AurelThis month it is a done deal for Typhoon, last year a Rafale deal was “about to be signed”. I bet next year we will read Boeing is about to conclude the deal.
Fat Lady. Singing. The end.
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