AurelThe only thing I could add is, that there was a comment from Singapore, that they where quite surprised Typhoon could supercruise in the hottest hours of the day down there. Well, above 30.000 feet, there isn’t any hot and moist climate. Rest is pure speculation.
AurelThe range on internal fuel of the Typhoon compared to the Rafale is slightly better. However, the Rafale carries larger external tanks, and has two additional wet pylons.
AurelEurofighter Typhoon capability soars ahead with latest contract
Farnborough/Hallbergmoos (OTS) – The Eurofighter Typhoon development programme took a major step forward at the Farnborough International Airshow today with Eurofighter GmbH and the NATO Eurofighter and Tornado Management Agency (NETMA) signing a contract for the integration of a Laser Designator Pod (LDP) and the Enhanced Paveway II Laser Guided Bomb on Royal Air Force Typhoons.
Aloysius Rauen, CEO of Eurofighter GmbH and Peter Worrall, NETMA General Manager, signed the contract at the Show where Typhoon has been delighting the crowds with a daily display of its agility and power in the air, carrying a full swing role weapons load. Both signatories agreed that the deal takes the programme to its next level in terms of operational capability.Aloysius Rauen said:
“With this new contract we will boost Eurofighter Typhoon’s capabilities beyond the contracted Tranche 1 performance. It will definitely make the aircraft even more attractive to potential export customers. Already in Tranche 1 the integration of Paveway II, GBU-10 and GBU-16 is proving Eurofighter Typhoon’s outstanding swing role performance. 13 hard points for weapons and fuel tanks, including a standard configuration of four medium range and two short range air-to-air missiles, plus the gun, with possibilities for up to six LGBs and external fuel tanks make Eurofighter Typhoon superior to other competitors claiming to be next generation fighter aircraft.”Peter Worrall OBE added
“This is a very exciting time for the Eurofighter partnership. The air forces are seeing the capability of their aircraft being consistently enhanced in line with the requirements of the development programme. This latest agreement is great news for all of the Eurofighter stakeholders.”The “Austere” capability will be available to the Royal Air Force for entry into service in the first half of 2008. Initially the necessary hardware and software will be integrated into Block 5 aircraft and the Royal Air Force intends to retrofit the full Block 5 capability to other Tranche 1 aircraft. The Laser Designator Pod will be carried on the centre fuselage station, so all four under-fuselage missile stations will be available for the full air-to-air fit.
source: airpower.at
AurelOr simply buy for that money additional weapons already cleared for the Rafale.
IF it comes that cheap. Maybe Greece gets a dicountprice for being first export customer. So far pure speculation.
AurelIn the press release for the T2 order, engines, radar und DASS was specifically mentioned. Thats all I know. The ministry of defence released these days the financial plannings until 2009/10. Hope to find there some more detailed information, or at least some hint for a further search.
And yes, I think those € 50 million is the minimum price. After hard negotiations, the original price was lowered a bit.
This is a result of cost reduction measures, possible after gained experience with tranche 1. The industry side proposed even more measures, but due to political restrictions, they were canceled.
Some millions more or less are shurely not deciding. Finally, it depends everything on the quality of DASS and AESA-atenna for the CAPTOR.
Edit: found a quite interesting number for the tranche 3 aircraft: roughly € 2,5 billion for 68 aircraft. Translates to roughly € 36,8 million a piece. Even if this is not the final contract, numbers won’t change that much. Tranche 2 came finally € 200 million cheaper as fixed in the pre-contract.
AurelIn comparison to the Rafale, EF should be able to use their new Iris-T Missiles, and most weapons the Greek use with their F-16’s.
Sure, it’s a shame the EF is unable to carry the MICA, since it is a European weapon, but hey, this could be the only positive outcome of an EF purchase: integration of the MICA. (Dunno if it’s worth the afford for the 100 they posses..)
StormShadow and Scalp is the same thing, so here compatibility, too. (by the way, did they order more then the initial 34 ?)
On the other hand, it is possible they once again decide for riding a dead horse, order more F-16’s, till the JSF becomes available. (LM declares they are 4 time as effective as “European lagacy fighters” in a2a)
AurelThe British numbers are always higher then those I read from the three other partners. Maybe the British Typhoons get some more gimmicks ?
What I know for sure, that there had been some creative outsourcing of costs in the German T1 order. The purchased Pirates for example were not included in the procurement costs of the Typhoon. It was included in weapons procurement.
And therefore, the order was small enough, to avoid parliamantary approval.
What I don’t know, if this applies to the tranche 2 order, too.
The only definate thing is German T2 Typhoons come for exactly € 50 million a piece.
I think this is the price to beat, in a real hot competition.
AurelWell, It think the most sensible solution would be to buy no additional fighters at all. Followed by that I would like the cheapest solution: the Gripen.
But I think the Typhoon will win. It offers the best growth potential as fighter, has the best commonality with already purchased weapons.
Rafale could have a chance in the light of a possible Turkish Typhoon deal. On the other hand, Greek leaders always wanted the same toys as Turkey…
AurelYour combination of 70 Gripens and 30 Eurofighters is a joke. That would cost you over 8.7 billion USD taking a very, very kind price of 30 million USD for the Gripen due to its desperate situation right now. My same order only brings me to about 1.5 billion USD.
No, it is no joke.
Let’s take some different numbers. You certainly know of that proposed barter trade between Sweden and Thailand. 15 million per Gripen, paid with frozen chicken.
Well, now that the Swedes try to dump their A/B-models, I would suspect to get them nearly for free, if I sign for E/F models down the road.
Add to this training support for the first aircrews und ground personal. And all that fun to build an aiforce from scratch.
Well since you are unwilling to provide some more info about your opponent, I’ll pick a worst case scenario. MiG-29’s or F-16’s in larger numbers, combined with MiG-21’s , F-5’s or older Mirages.
Then you still tell me, it is a joke, that I offer an equivalent to the Singaporean AF. A different example would be Korea. They are in nearly the position you describe. Singapore the same. Both nations buy roughly 30 planes in the $100 million region. And for some reason, both kicked the Super Hornet beside it’s “competetive price” out.
You try to mod your aircraft, go for diversity. Well, I try to avoid costs for modding. At least, bevore modding some aircraft, you need some experienced personal. Therefore, Gripen as low end, EF as highend. They provide at least weapons commonality.
Now you try to get a system running, with myriads of aircraft and weapons. Good luck, paying billions for foreign “advisors”, that run your “cheap” aircraft.
Even worse, with your modded Hinds, you will need advisors from different countries, that don’t necessarily like or even support each other.
As a sidenote, Boeing canceled it’s partnership with Aero Vochody. So, no common service here, too.
AurelWell, why do you think a Gripen/Super Hornet combination comes cheaper then a Gripen/Typhoon combi ?
One point maybe, that Saab/Volvo are involved in the F-414, so that this is the most likly engine for coming upgrades.
Besides this, I would prefer a Typhoon/Gripen combination an the ground of weapons commonality.
Meteor, Iris-T, Taurus, Lightning Pod’s,…
Considering additional weapons:
I would go for South African ones. With the Gripen order in mind, I would say you won’t pay for the integration of the Darter Missile, and several a2g ammunitions.
I read several times, that Brasilia is intersted in those missiles, too. They seem to be cheap and sufficient.
If all this talk leads to some action, F-5BR, Gripen and Tucanos will be cleared for them in the not so distant future. Add to this, that the Darter missile exists in both IR and Radarguidance variants.
If you like to purchase your special Hind, then you already have to deal with denel, for it’s Ingwe missile. The larger your order, the cheaper the package I guess.
Your scenario is for fun purposes, but some additional informations would be nice. The background of your military personal for example would be from interest. Was your parent country (from which your nation broke away from) equipped with Russian or western weaponry ? What kind of opposition you have to count with ? Are your potential opponents focused on air, ground or naval forces ?
So I repeat my proposal, with some comments.
PC 21 (20)
Basic training by a civilian company in land. Then transition to the PC-21. It is said, they behave like jets. So this training would be absolutely sufficient, no need for a jettrainer. No coin, no nothing, just training.
JAS 39 A/B Gripen (70)
Easy to fly, comparable to T-38/F-5. And easy to get. Sweden plans to get rid of all A/B types. So they are available, and fast to introduce. The running costs are in the same league as a Hawk. So why would I want any of those funny LIFT aircraft ? A ten year leasing contract, later replaced by newer version Gripens. 60 in active service, 10 as attrition and reserve airframes.
The biggest problem of the A-models is BvR. They are cleared only for -B type AMRAAMs, and these are out of production. Therefore the need to get them with handed down AMRAAMs, which would need the permission of the US.
Other weapons: Iris-T, Mavericks, DWS-39, ARAK-70, RBS-15F
Eurofighter Typhoon (30)
Later introduced as the Gripen, and used as the spearhead of my airforce.
They would come with most weapons, which will equip the later newbuild Gripens, too. Mainly Meteor, Taurus 350, Brimstone, NSM and JDAM.
EMB-145 AEW&C (5) EMB-145 RS (5)
Most probably the cheapest way to know whats going on.
3 A 330 MRTT
konvertet from used airliners, will provide some transport capacity, und a2a refueling.
30 CN-235-300 transports
the cheapest to run modern tactical transport.
5 CN-235 MPA’s
same airframe as the transporters. With the given geography, MPA’s are in my opinion essential.
30 Mi-171 transport helicopters
rugged, proven, cheap und good payload
30 Mi-24M
using the same new engines, transmission etc. as the Mi-171, the ideal complement for them.
In short, a fighterforce somewhat comparable to that of Singapore, combined with some additional tactical airlift capacity as a result of the geography.
AurelWell, it would be nice to know what your human resources are trained with. Was that former union equiped with eastern or western style weapons ?
However, here is my potential AF:
PC-21 for most trainig purposes.
70 (or what I could get) JAS-39A/B in a 10 year leasing contract. Later replaced by the same number newly build E/F-, Super- or whatever Gripens.
30 €F Typhoon. Hopefully I can talk the Swedish into using the EJ-2xx for their next generation Gripen.
5 EMB-145 AEW&C, 5 EMB-145 RS
Latest Russian versions of the Mi-171 and Mi-24 that have some commonality, 30 each.
3 A 330 MRTT
30 CN-235 tactical transporters
5 CN-235 MPA’s
5 S-300 Systems
30 Tor M1 Systems.
AurelDon’t know how much the British, Italian or Spanish taxpayer has to pay, but the German T2 Typhoons have a contracted price of exactly € 50 mill. per aircraft.
Includet are initial spares, excluded weapons except the BK.
AurelAurelI’m not absolutely shure if the LO-advantage is that deiciding here.
1vs1
Situation 1:
Both aircraft got Radar off, using IRST’s to search an track targets. I got absolutely no clue which aircaft is “better” in that arena. (Signature und sensor effeciency) I would guess JSF, but without any exact numbers can’t decide.
Situation 2:
Both aircraft are scanning actively with their radars.
Well, both aircraft got state of the art RWR’s, so I guess both spot each other from quite long distances.
My money here on Typhoon, simply because of the better flight performance.
X vs. CM/legacy fighters
advantage JSF: with AWACS support able to take full advantage of its LO characteristics.
advantage Typhoon:
most probably better a2a load, supercruise
My conclusion:In a defensive situation, I would prefer the Typhoon. For offensive operations the JSF shines.
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