AurelWhy should they leave ? The UK was ever the junior partner, and will ever be. As long as they get full spec aircraft, what they seem to believe, they should continue concentrating on JSF.
AurelHi Viper, welcome to the club !
I tried it in 1998. Together with ~6000 other young man. I had the luck to be selected to attend officer’s school and flight training. Roughly 70 others had that luck, too. After the graduating we were around 50. Then came additional test and selections. I was washed out in Good Year, at the basic flight test. The next step would have been ENJJPT in Shepperd. I think that would have been a part of your career, too. (I only remember the stories about that unbelievable high payment of the Norwegians :p ). Roghly 15 comrads managed to get the desired wings as jet frontseater. Around 10 others became jet backseater, heli or transport-pilot. Oh, and there were a few additonal comrads from the Navy.
So-out of 6000 only 15 made it. Could be one reason, why there are not that many people interested in military aviation becoming pilots and finally post here. 😉
AurelNice to read that the pilot is save. Anybody here to provide some info from the press-conference ? If it is a technical issue then I suppose the fleet will be grounded. And yes 24 million are really cheap.
AurelWell, I would go for something bigger.
The Brits have those trimaran-designs. A technolgy-demonstrator was build and the concept validated with it. So instead of the not yet existing type 45 hulls I would choose the not yet existing 8700to trimaran hulls.
The faster speed, better economics and larger deckspace make them my choice.
Propulsion: CODAG, with RR WR-21 turbines and encapsulated MTU diesels + transmission
Main Artillery: 2x 127mm OtoMelara.
Secondary artillery: Oerlikon Millenium 35mm weapon.
Airdefense: PAAMS + Sylverlauncher + Aster 15/30.
Radar: APAR + AMS S1850M volume-search-radar.
Sonar: STN Atlas DSQS-24C.
Optronics: Thales Matador
Torpedoes: Eurotorp MU-90.
Communication: Rohde&Schwarz + Astrium SCOT 3 satcom.
ASM:Kongsberg NSM or Saab RBS-15 mk3
SSM: Scalp Navale
Contermeasures: Thales RESM + BAe Systems DLH
Superstructure build after German Meko principles, 2 large hangars amidship, providing space for 4 medium helicopters (MH-90/EH-101/Tiger/whatever this size). On the stern a flexdeck with missionmodules. (RoRo, additional hangar, landingboat, additional compartments,…)
AurelThe mirage are from the Orange air base in the south of France and the A340 belongs to airbus industry.
Huh ? A promotion video ? Product placement is one thing but this is … nearly as good as all those hurray-patriotic recruitement clips from the US. :diablo:
AurelO.K., with that additional informations I would spend my money as follows:
3 U-214, armed with heavyweight torps and russian klub missile family (3M-54E, 3M-54E1 and 3M-14E), costs around 1.2 billion $.
Add to this 100 SS-X-26 systems, worth 500million.
4 EMB-145 AEW and 2 EMB-145 GS for together 1.2 billion to improve situational awareness.
One further billion for an additonal squadron of Tomcats, the upgrade to the proposed Tomcat 21 standard and a weapons package including standoff-weapons.
200 billion for an IAI/Elbit-upgrade for the Phantoms, similar to the turkish terminator upgrade plus weapons.
600 million for S-400 and MTEL-systems. 300 million for a wing S-3 Vikings.
500 billion I would invest in an additional airfield 200km east of my capitol, hardened shelters for all bases and shoes for my workers ;).
The relieving millions would be spend in a modern communication and command system, to take full advantage of the Erieyes.
Taktics:
If the Typhoon is really armed with 200 😮 100kt warheads, I think it will be observated by an USN-SSN. Any attend to use those weapons would lead to it’s destruction. If it is only armed with conventional weapons, then I would have to face an attack with missiles such as clubs. Something my airdefenses should be able to handle to 90%. Killing the beast would be the job of my Vikings. Additional, they would provide a2a refuelling, if necessary.
Leaves the Kirov for my Phantoms to take out.
The three airfields and the silly desert ship, as well as anything else worth targetting within range, I would attack with my SS-X-26. Whats left of the aircraft/installations I would try to finish off on the ground with my Thunderbolts or in the air with a fighter sweep of my Tigers.
The base in the middle of the coast and the flankerbase I would attack with missiles from my submarines.
That leaves two operational bases, the launch pad, the Habu and the capitol.
With intakt bases around, I wouldn’t attack the capitol.
The Habu would be the target of the S-400 and some Tomcats armed with AIM-54. The Launchpad and the two disabled Fighterbases I would attack with my Tomcats, using PGM’s for the bases and standoff-missiles for the launchpad.
After that, only what is left of the Flankers could be a thread to my territory. Everything else would be out of range, assuming the forward bases could be completely destroyed.
AurelCould you provide a scale to your map ?
However, I would give the Phantom’s an israeli terminator upgrade and use them for strike/maritime strike. Weapon package including Harpoon and israeli PGM’s. Add 2 squadrons of Bombcats and an addtional airfield.
Pointdefense for vital areas and my airfields via MTEL and S-400.
To take care of their installations (inclusive this “desert ship”) a bunch of SS-X-26.
Two Dolphin-class subs to attack the flankerbase and take care of the Typhoon.
AurelWell, with only 8 billions things will become much more difficult.
I’ll buy all A-Model Gripens I can get (maximum 3 Squadrons worth, all upgrated to batch 3 standard) based up on this Thai-chicken story, one could get them for 15mill each.
Additionally I would stick to my 3 squadrons of Typhoon’s. They are the dragonslayers I envisage to knock out all those second generation Fulcrums and Flankers.
For AEW&C and ground suveillance EMB-145 and EMB-145 RS have to do.
If the F-5’s are in good conditions, I would sell them off. Maybe even the A-4 could be sold off for spears. The remaining F-8’s I would offer via ebay 😀
After boosting my finances that way, I would buy some MTEL airdefense lasers (25mill $ per unit), to protect vital areas from missiles and artillerygrenades. (Well, it was said my country is tiny)
The releaving billion I would invest in someting really nasty and offensive: some SS-X-26 missiles.
It was designed to be able to destroy both stationary and moving targets, specifically SAM sites, short-range missile launchers, airfields, ports, command and communication centers, factories and hardened defensive targets. In this way, the SS-X-26 can destroy both active military units and targets to degrade the enemy’s capability to wage war.
source: missilethread.com
AurelHm, well since my airforce is equipped with western types, I would go for someting from the U$/€U.
To start with I would buy some P-8A’s and Wedgetails worth one Squadron. Both are modified 737, should ease the maintenance and spare part procurement a bit.
The spearhead of my airforce would be three squadrons of Typhoons. For priority on a2a they seem to fit better then F-18E or Rafales. Weapons would be AIM-120B and AIM-9L to start with. (From stock ore used ones) Later they would be replaced by Iris-T and AIM-120C’s, and finally Meteor’s would be added. For a2g I would buy some Paveway-kits to upgrade existing bombs, buy some Taurus standoff missiles and Armiger ARM’s plus some aditionally Harpoons to support the P-8’s if necessary.
The workhorse of my airforce would be 6 Gripen squadrons. Initially I would lease some A-model Gripens, later I would replace them with Gripen E/F, preferable with the EJ-2xx and other gimmicks from the Typhoon, for example parts of the DASS and the pirate.
Weapons nearly the same as the Typhoon, only adding the RBS-15 and the Mjölner.
Later on I would by some A-Darter to replace the AIM-9 as supplement of the Iris-T for both fighter aircraft. For a2g I would round up the inventory with Denel Umbani and Raptor II PGM’s. Buy African ! 😉
AurelIf it had been an airline on final approach on Washington central airport, it would have taken 30 seconds for it, to reach the white house. I guess even if your Harriers would be postioned right on top of the president’s bedroom, they couldn’t identify, warn, and finally attack the intruder properly.
And why can’t you believe it ? That happens all the time. Some people loose orientation, or are simply ill informed about the no fly zone. Happened in Davoz last year, and in Frankfurt and don’t know where else.
AurelI hope the guy in the Cessna was heavily armed with digicams ! A F-16 dropping flares above Washington. Such pics could be worth all that trouble. 😀
AurelIs that with the Mirage IV fix ? Could be one of the last chances to see that great beast.
AurelAs I said the ECR90 has greater range than the RBE2. It’s a good radar but the AdlA and the Aeronavale needed a terrain-following capability and good mapping capabilities. And all of this in a package that would withstand carrier landings reliably. RBE2 does that.
No, I don’t mean only range. That is one aspect in favour of the MSA, there are to additional aspects. First you lose scanning angle. Additional, the larger the scanning angle, the shorter the range of a ESA. That means the situational awareness is definately worse with a PESA. Shorter range and less coverage.
The MSA of the CAPTOR is for shure not that fast in scanning as a PESA, nor is it that flexible in multirole performance, but it is nethertheless the fastest MSA I know. With the same amount of money, it is for pure a2a by far more capable then the RBE2.
And this discussion we have here with the radars, we could have with nearly all parts of both aircraft. For example the engines: M-88-2 got the better SFC, the EJ-200 the better thrust to weight ratio. Or the jetintakes, Dassault designed a simple but amazing effective inlet, while the one of the Typhoon has this lips, that regulate the airflow and thus improve performance at high AOA and supersonic speed. Thousend little parts where the Typhoon offers a little bit more performance, at the expense of a little bit higher costs.
In all those decisions that had to be taken by the designers, we see the different aimes. Dassault tried to build an aircraft that should be cheap to export it (always with the economical failure Mirage 4000 in mind) while the empasis on the Eurofighter had always been a2a combat.
And I like it that way. Let’s imagine we have gulfwar IV, the Saudis are our enemies, and our combined EF and Rafale squadrons blow the Saudi Rafales out of the Sky. Nobody will talk about the help that we got from the French in figuring out the weak points of the Rafale. Instead a nice little Rafale bashing will come up. And then people as you and me have to defend it. Not all those guys that today run around and tell everybody that the Rafale got the *cooler* stuff build in.
Aurel@ Puffadder
Since you know all those advantages of an PESA you shurely know the disadvantages,too. At the moment, I think (this) mechanical antenna offers the better performance for a2a compared to a PESA.
Otherwise I agree with you. The PESA is a more flexible system.
I had wished we would get the AESA with batch 5 block 10, since this is the first batch which will be delivered to a fighter-bomber Sqadron (JaboG 31 “Boelcke”).
I think it should have been introduced directly after the new mission computer.
But yes, as you already mentioned, there is the JSF and here the politicians can’t delay payments for the development. 😡
I fear somehow we will never see an AESA on our Typhoons. At least no retrofit to tranche 1 and 2 aircraft.
And now we are at this “priority for Europe”- point. Indeed it has nothing to do with Rafale, only with Typhoon and JSF. 🙁
Aurel1 Rafale F3 = 52 millions.
1 German tranche Eurofighter =50 millions (68 aircraft, contract volume € 3,4 billion) Even if I repeat myself, could you please provide any information what is included in the French F3 order ?
The RAfale F3 is already lower than the Typhoon.
How can you make it go down by pouring more money into that program ?
Simply because that money that is now invested is laughable in comparison to the sums that had to be paid off with tranche 1 and 2. And I’m speaking about fly away prices, not global program costs.
Yes, the mecanical one.
What does the shark care about being the oldfashioned design compared to the seal. We know who wins this fight.
I fear it’s a bit more complicated.
Uhh, yes ? The Typhoon’s radar has more range and is the only one with a third processing channel to deal with ECM. It’s supersonic performance is better and it got more internal fuel. Additionally it got a towed decoy to improve it’s defenses in BVR combat. The AMRAAM is longer ranged than the MICA. In close combat the (German) typhoonpilot got the Libelle flight suit, which improves g-tolerance significantly. The rafalepilot got a HMS, while the typhoonpilot got HMCS. In favour of the Rafale is the MICA IR as medium range IR-missile. Unknown factors are the effectiveness of their respective ECM/ECCM systems. All together there is more in favour of the Typhoon then vice versa.
Better range and better playload are nothing ?
Did I say nothing ? But what is it with this better (theoretical) payload ?
Is there any realistic configuration where we get into trouble with the maximum loadout of the Typhoon ? It is able to deliver the same ordnance as the Tornado + 3-4 additional BVRAAMS. Seems to be enough for our needs.
And the longer range ? Hm, as long as we don’t fly CAPs over central siberia the ferryrange is long enough. Completely sufficient to visit the States, buy some new sunglasses in the local BX and spend some time at the local cultural highlights. (For example the Le Girl’s in Phoenix 😀 )
@ Phil
You got some points, but what got the Rafale to do with a more unified Europe ? The Typhoon is the European Fighter, while the Rafale is to a certain extend a venture of Dassault. And if we look at Singapore or Saudi Arabia, then the decisions made by Dassault seem to proof right. They had their “big” fighter, the Mirage 4000. It didn’t sell, so the conclusion of Dassault was to build a efficient, small multirole fighter. The British asked for a larger Radar, the Germans for excellent shortrun and climbing characteristics. So the larger Radar caused a larger fighter, larger engines and didn’t fit therefore in Dassault’s vision of the small, exportable multirole fighter.
From that perpective, that lightweight fighter became pretty fat and expansive. (And of course capable, but this is another story)
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