AurelYeah, you are certainly right. I just want some concrete numbers. I got this 50 mill. a plane fly away price for the German tranche 2 order. I’m to lazy to look up how many are on the British tranche 2 order, and how many they cost. Neither do I know the exact numbers of the actual French batch. I think this is up to the French and British forum members. They shurely know better from their local press.
It is in my opinion nearly impossible to get prices on a comparable basis. The British order includes some equipment, that the German order does not include. What about the details of the actual French Rafale batch ?
I think Glitter is in the better position to provide some numbers and details about the package. What weapons and systems (flight suits, ECM, HMCS,…) are included. For example the German tranche 2 order includes not enough pirates for all aircraft. They will be delivered in this “fitted for, but not with” manner. The pirates will be delivered seperately and plugged in only if needed.
And to the overall numbers. The largest Typhoon order is the British with 232 frame order and 65 options. (Not likely to be delivered)
The French order is larger (294 units). That means their assembly line will produce the largest single order of European fighter jets. Advantage for Dassault not BAe Systems.
Then let’s go into the tranches. The second rafale batch ordered in 2004 include 59 aircraft, while the British Tranche 2 order includes 89 aircraft. I think this is what Glitter meant with “the French goverment bought less planes”.
Well then let’s compare it to the German T2 order: 68 aircraft at a price of € 3,4 billion. If someone could provide the bill for the 59 Rafales and what is included in that sum (weapons, development costs, ground equipment…), maybe we could agree on which aircraft is cheaper, and which provides more bang for buck.
Aurel4 assembly lines. Not 4 production lines.
Yes, but still more expansive then the Rafale production. At the end of it’s assembling process, all Typhoon parts combined have seen more of europe then I did during the last ten years.
Few months ago, UK spend more money on a limited typhoon tranche2 than France with fully develloped Rafale F3 even when the french gov bought less planes.
Huh ? The British paid more for more jets ? What is strange about that ? Besides this, I think development costs are here mixed in, too.
To give a number: The German tranche 2 Typhoons come at exactly € 50 mill a pice. What I read the Rafale C is slightly cheaper ~48 mill, while B and M models are slightly more expansive.
What causes more problems with a direct comparison is the way the doubleseaters are used. The Typhoons double seaters are full combat capable trainers, while the Rafale B is more a strike variant. Therefore the fraction of double seaters within the French order is larger. That means the overall fleet will become more costly and thus equal in price to the Typhoon fleets.
Additionally, the advantage of the larger order will come into play mostly with tranche 3. Here I would suspect a definately lower price for the Typhoon.
And even if it would be 1,2 million more expansive compared to the Rafale, it would well be worth it.
It offers the larger radar, the higher cruising speed and the better supersonic performance. It is the better pure fighter.
The advantages of the Rafale are somehow not that critical to the needs of my country. Larger external fuel tanks, a higher theoretical maximum (a2g !) loadout, larger ferry range (due to 2 more wetpoints). And of course the naval variant.
Things may change of course, if the Rafale does exactly what it was aimed for: succeed in export markets.
I hope it will win in Singapore, and get’s some orders from the Arab world. I wouldn’t feel comfortable with the Typhoon sold to the latter.
Maybe it will become therefore cheaper than the Typhoon. But it will not get the edge in a2a combat. And that is the decisive characteristic for our needs.
Together with the higher workshare, it is the reason why Germany now buys a mostly German design, with mostly British radar and RR/MTU engine. Oh and of course a cockpit with Italian style and a Spanish aircondition. 😉
AurelSo, the Rafale and Typhoon costed the same thing to develloped …… but the Typhoon is more expensive than the RAfale even if twice more will be built ?
Isn’t strange ?
No, it isn’t. Simply because there are 4 national production lines, 4 national logistic centers, 4 national sh!t of everything.
To compare the production costs, we should take the fly away prices. Could you provide the numbers of the C/B-model Rafales ? How many exactly at which price ?
I think the British order comes pretty close in numbers. Got someone the prices for the British order at hand ? 😀
AurelSo China’s Blue Water build up is really no need for concern? And what if they finally put to sea with a carrier that suprises everyone who thinks they don’t have one? Memories of the Yamato class spring tio mind here, covered building preventing pics from being taken, never seen before security to protect any info leeks. OK China might not have one, but who’s to say that can’t build one without anyone knowing?
For what reason should China attack NZ ?
Some turboprops and jettrainers couldn’t hurt nethertheless. How do you do airpolicing in NZ ? Bizjets and arliners are to fast for helicopters. Will the RNZAF send their 757 in case of an emergency ?
AurelHm, it is not only the Il-76. Economical even more interesting would be the An-124. Imagine that bird with nice RR-Engines, Airbus cockpit, a revised wing and a european FBW. Able to land on a shoestring, econical to run and to purchase… Bye bye european airlift gap.
AurelI would think it is a MiG-23, because of the large fin and sleek wings.
AurelPutting it this way the Chinese offer the best deal, the Dutch would offer F-16’s and Fokkers and the Germans would offer Mig-29’s and UH-1’s with some G-160’s with maybe some Do-228’s
The C-160’s got absolutely no life left in them. The MiG-29 are completely “sold” to Poland or given to a museum, the UH-1’s are as old as the C-160’s.
I don’t know how many Do-228 are left, but they are at least no scrap metal.
And the Alpha Jet’s where retired because they are unable to carry decent weapon load-outs. An update with Mavericks and (???) was planned, but after reunification these plans where dropped.
AurelI would bet on “Europa”. Ships are these days named after rivers, cities and federal states. (e.g.Elbe, Frankfurt, Sachsen). The next bigger thing would be the complete country. But a little bird tells me there would be no “Deutschland”, therefore I think “Europa” would be a nice name. Hey, and it is political correct. 😉
AurelThose new MiG’s have as much evolved as the Viper did. The range has been drastically increased, the cockpit is on western standard, the cockpit visbility has become better. The weapon’s load is now acceptable. They are cleared for Russian PGM’s. The engines now don’t smoke anymore, and have improved reliability and service life. I think they are comparable with Hornet’s now.
The Russians offered it with the Bars-29, a smaller but moderner version of the Bars radar of the Su-30 MKI.
If the Indians like to use them for their strike und nuclear strike force, the Mirage fit’s better in my opinion. If they are intended as fighters, the MiG seems better to me. I got the impression, they are intended as stop gap, till the MCA is available. The “weaker” airframe of the MiG should be therefore no problem.
With a pretty short service life in India, the cheaper initial costs of the MiG could make it the more economical decision.
AurelEven if Germany would build a ship that could be described as a carrier, the name wouldn’t be Graf Zeppelin. The actual socialist/green party government is about to ban names as Mölders, Scharnhorst, Boelke or Immelmann. Every naming after persons that served the armed forces prior ’45 will be removed.
The lefties getting more and more fans within the armed forces, with their nice ideas. As if we had no better problems then to rename dozens of units and barracks. 😎
AurelWell, it is a capable aircraft. Where is the story ? Surprise, surprise, the latest 70-million-bird of 4 leading industrialised nations is “very capable”. With this price tag, one could suspect it.
AurelAs the thread about the 11Billions for Typhoon runs into a different direction I’ll post it here.
Georg Mader from airpower.at wrote this money could be for upgrading tranche 1 aircraft to tranche 2 standard. He writes it is a pure government to government thing right now, nobody from the (German) industry seems to know anything specific about it.
My speculation:
There was this article recently, that the industry side plans to accelerate the integration of weapon systems, to keep en paar with the Rafale and Gripen. My impression is that the governments now support this. Makes some sense to me, if more aircraft are build to the same standard (because full T.2 specs are avaible for earlier blocks), then fewer aircraft will later need an upgrade.
And besides this, it would help the Typhoon in the export market, as mentioned in the article.
AurelNice to discuss those DERA Simulations, AMRAAM vs MICA and so on, but that was not the question. It was T.3 vs. F.3 with both having AESA. Since there is no decision about included gimmicks of tranche 3 we can’t answer it. And if both got AESA, both got Meteor, too. So no need to discuss MICA and AMRAAM here.
Do we see EJ-230 or 270 on tranche 3 ? TVC ? Improved DASS ?
I repeat myself: Who knows how effective are ECM and ECCM of both jets if they interact ?
I lack a crystal ball that answers those questions.
Personal opinion: The Typhoon got the better starting conditions. It’s layout is more optimized for supersonic agility, while the Rafale has the better low speed handling for carrier-born operations. Additionally the Captor got this unique 3rd processing channel, for improved ECM resistance.
The Typhoon got the higher cruising speed and better acceleration. But this is all worth nothing, if the Spectra is nearly as effectiv as it is rumored.
Let’s hope for some informations from the Singaporean tender. I direct fly-off between them would at least end those endless hypothetic discussions.
AurelThere are many old threads about this. But as Glitter wrote, nobody can really know. Especially the efficiency of Spectra vs. CAPTOR and DASS vs. RBE.2 would be completely speculation.
Additionally the tranche 3 configuration of the EF is still not known.
AurelWether those Spaniards talk too much, or there are some problems with translation. Who would be that stupid to say anything before the deal is done and the decision announced by the Singaporians ?
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