experimental: He 178 (1939)
military: Me 262 (1944)

I don’t give a hoot on what these leftist liberal kooks from AI have to say. Degenerated attitudes like those propagated by them and their fellow deconstructivistic New-Frankfurt-School traitors are one of the main causes for the mess we’re in. And the “rest of the West” as you call it, is destined for desaster and extinction if they don’t bite off a healty dose of realism, self-respect and will to survive. There is a cultural war waged in this world between “us” and “them” and no place for morality – just for living or dying. And only a part of the American elites see it realisticly the way it is, whereas the European elites are merry bystanders marveling on their holier-than-thou liberal agenda and watching their peoples going under.

I don’t like the Schröder-Government, nor the way they handled there opposition against OIF. But you seem to have a very simplified view of the current situation ! If your war is reality, then it is mostly a cold war. And yes, we are loosing them. But do you really like to make it a hot war ? Then we are at the same point as 1933, with all those consequences.
Then Europe would really need some better military Equipment. 🙁

One short comment to strategical airlift in Europe. The budget of the U.S. C-5 fleet was about twice as high as the whole budget of the Luftwaffe.
We have at the moment really other problems then doing expeditionary warfare around the globe. Since the end of the cold war the situation changed drastically, but most European forces didn’t adapt to the new situation. This is really expansive, since all services have to be restructured.

It is overdue that a European/NATO C-17 fleet is established. Under the command of NATO, like the AWACS. And the A400M they are poised to build instead is not worth a **** for “strategic” and “heavy” and “longrange” missions. But I said that before.

The A-400M will do it’s job. It will be able to carry the new APC’s and armored trucks that are necessary for the peacekeeping missions. To call them strategical transportes is of course nonsense. They are only a replacement for the C-160. And for those few cases most European countries need real strategic airlift they can charter some Antonovs.
For Switzerland the situation is even simpler. They will only land on civilian airfields, deliver some food, medicine or civilian personal after a natural desaster. They don’t need a tactical transporter.
So the cheaper transporter saves some money, that can be invested in new fighters as replacement for the F-5. 😀

Second — I don’t know who you are, maybe you are from Africa or China or India, but “OUR” interests as “Europeans” and “THEIR” interests as “Americans” are one and the same, because we are a white people, are of western and christian culture and notwithstanding what certain duds in European capitols and certain elements of the European media try to establish an European identity through Anti-Americanism and angst about the bad things that will decend upon Europe when openly joining the U.S. in world affairs, “WE” should do everything to nourish that transatlantic *conflation* and would be well advised not to oppose the U.S., but to support our common cause.

Are WE white ? Are WE of western and christian culture ? Or did you speak about the 1950’s ? Then you are right, of course. 😎

My freindly friend Auren, I cannot help but notice that perahps you may be nationalistically biased to the Typhoon as with many fine handsome deustchemen i’ve talken to

Shurely I am nationalistically biased. But when it comes to Typhoon and Rafale, it is pretty easy for me. I never liked the Rafale. It is fat, round and with it’s large canopy it looks like Tweety. The right toy for women ! When it comes down to numbers, the Rafale has more range with external fuel und can carry 500kg more weapons. Great. The fuel/range issue will turn in favour to Typhoon, as soon as it gets 2000l droptanks. And if you have a look at those loadout charts on EF homepage, I don’t miss those 500kg.
What I really like is the M-88. It is lighter and has better sfc. The OSF is fine, but I doubt that aircraft identification is better then with the pirate.
And the cockpit, bloody hell, you got this large screen right in front of you. I hope it got an DVD-player and a popcorn compartment.

anyways, that American weapon incorporation is also a shortfall for the Typhoon too.. since those who are not cleared for AMRAAM don’t have much alternatives if they buy Typhoon (perhaps Skyflash?)

So, let’s have a look at potential customers: All of them are NATO-Members or operate at least still american aircraft. They will get them if they don’t have them already. You seem to forget that this ain’t a Russian, French or American product. We don’t sell to anybody ! We don’t even sell Leopard 2 to Turkey, because of their human rights situation. And they are in NATO and our stupid lefties are heavily lobbying to get them into the EU. (At least, they got something in common with George W. Bush. 😎

The problem of the Rafale is that it is not integrated with american weapons. They will always be produced in larger numbers and thus cheaper. Both are that expansive, that a cheaper design to support your Rafale/Typhoon makes sense. Italy/Spain/UK will certainly use the EF/JSF combination. So, much overleap weapons wise, I assume. Rafale/M2K ? Shurely the best combi money wise would be Gripen/EF, with Gripen powered by EJ-220. Weapons wise is the cooperation between Sweden/UK/Germany still very extensive, with many joint projects for the future.

LAHORE: Air Chief Marshal (ACM) LAHORE: Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Kaleem Saadat has said the PAF will be equipped with the frontline, state-of-the-art fighter aircraft within three years to address the regional imbalance in the skies.

In an exclusive panel interview to The News, the Air Chief Marshal hinted at equipping the PAF with, at least, 60 air-superiority aircraft in the near future for enabling the PAF to defend the country’s aerial frontiers. The PAF is expected to finalize one of the available options soon.

The interview panel comprised Salim Bokhari, and Mayed Ali. Discussing the multiple options which the PAF is weighing, the ACM said, the French Mirage 2000-9, Chinese J-10 (F-10), US F-16s and Swedish AJ-39 (Grippens) were the potential hi-tech aircraft to meet the air force ‘s immediate requirement.

Any of these sophisticated jetfighters could help address the balance of air power in the region. “It is imperative for the PAF to equip its existing fleet with hi-tech air-superiority aircraft to counter any aerial threat in future.

The ACM said the PAF had already presented the government with its future force goals for the next 10-15 years, and the government had not found anything wrong with that. He informed that the government had approved the plans submitted, and assured the PAF it would get the desired funds.

The ACM, however, maintained that the purchase of new aircraft was an exhaustive exercise. He believed it was quite a task to get the best value for the limited resources, as the prices varied with the technology. Quoting examples, he said any air force could purchase an aircraft between ranges of $5 million to $250 million (F-7 to F-22 Raptor). He said it depended on what gadget an air force wanted on board. More sophisticated the equipment one wanted on the aircraft higher would be the price-tag. Moreover, no deal could be ascertained as final till the agreement was signed for so many other factors played a vital role in the materialization of any deal. Ranging from technical reasons, financial constraints to diplomatic pressures, anything could leave an impact on the proposed plan.

During the interview the Air Chief discussed pros and cons of all the options and emphasized that best choice would be made to induct a suitable aircraft in the PAF’s inventory.

The Chief said the existing fleet – 30 plus F-16s and 50 F-7PGs – would go beyond 2012. In addition to this, he added, the PAF would acquire 150-200 JF-17 (Thunder) to meet the future demand. He said over and above this, the PAF would need 50-100 sophisticated western aircraft, which would be the leading edge of the air force.

The PAF would have to work on a three-pronged programme for creating a semblance of balance of air power in the region – upgrade the existing fleet and acquire the JF-17, go for advanced Chinese J-10s in the coming few years and acquire hi-tech western jetfighters as soon as possible. “The question is, will the PAF have the resources to fund all these programmes?”

When asked about the F-16s, Saadat said it was not an issue. “I tell the Americans that F-16 has become an emotional issue for both the parties.”

In a lighter tone, the ACM laughed and said he suggested to his interlocutors, “why don’t we change the request for F-16s to one F-18s, so we can close the F-16s chapter and start a new chapter of F-18s. You see why the PAF is stuck with the case of F-16s.’’

The Air Chief said 16-30 additional F-16s would enhance the PAF’s capability tremendously with very little cost because the logistics were in place, technical training was in place and pilot training was in place. When asked if Pakistan was getting the F-16s, he said he couldn’t say it for sure. Pakistan was not in a position to wait for F-16s for too long.

“If it comes, it comes as a bonus. I am not counting on F-16s.” However, it remains a litmus test of relationship with the US. The clear-headed ACM believes Pakistan will have to acquire the latest technology because it is technology alone that provides you effective deterrence.

The ACM said there was a realization on the government’s part, regarding the urgency for equipping the PAF with new sophisticated planes. “The air force has been promised with the largest chunk in the defence budget. This couldn’t have been possible without that realization.’’ Kaleem Saadat is of the strong view the war strategy has changed in the present times, and ultimately the air force will prove to be decisive contributor to success. He believed the land-occupation was no more a bargaining chip, rather hitting the economic targets and lending financial blow was the strategy in vogue. Instead of outside-in strategy, that is, cutting through the defence of the enemy and reaching the capital city, the modern-day warfare emphasizes on the inside-out strategy – hitting inside starting from command and control and moving outwards. He is of the view the territory is not important, the brains, know-how, research, effective system of governance, commitment and economy are important.

“Any country will like to destroy the industry, infrastructure, bridges and other economic strategic targets, leaving the economy of the enemy paralyzed. Achieving this, it would put you behind by, say, ten years; so why the territory be occupied. The armed forces are of no use if your economy is not strong enough to sustain them. To avoid the destruction to our infrastructure and economy, Pakistan will have to strengthen its air force.’’

In response to a query if the PAF had learnt any lesson from the USAF’s presence in Pakistan during the Operation Restore Hope, the Chief said, “One learns from every experience. How same things can be done differently, and how can a system respond in a better way.’’ He said the USAF personnel used makeshift arrangements quite effectively, like portable lights for illuminating the runway or flying small UAVs (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles) for force protection. The Chief clarified that during Operation Enduring Freedom armed US aircraft did not attack Afghanistan from Pakistani soil.

When asked about the focus on the acquisition of UAVs, keeping in view their role in modern warfare, the Air Chief informed that the PAF had established a squadron of UAVs. The crews were training with half and full scale birds.

Talking about the ground-controlled air-defence system, he said it had been upgraded indigenously. Moreover, new radars have been acquired, and fresh plans are in the pipeline.

The ACM is a strong advocate of improving the human-resource base of the PAF with an aim to improve the commitment and outlook of the arm. For this purpose, he said, the air force had published two books – The Doctrine of the Pakistan Air Force and Blue Book (True North).

The work on the Doctrine of the PAF project was initiated during former ACM Mushaf Ali Mir’s time. This book got into print after nine months ACM Kaleem Saadat assumed the slot. The ACM believes the book has been written to tell the people, other services and various institutions about the PAF’s objectives and principles; and the core competencies the PAF aspires to have if it is to defend the country effectively.

As for the Blue Book, it’s a code for making complete and successful professional air force personnel. “Around 4000 officers and 33,000 to 34,000 technicians have the honour of wearing the blue uniform. So when one joins the air force, he should know what he should believe in and identify the objectives before him. So he could work towards the achievement of the same. We have been ritualistic in our approach so far for achieving the objectives. Reading a document does not mean you have acquired the knowledge, rather you need to evolve a way to measure the impact of the knowledge acquired by putting to test to find out whether or not the student has acquired the knowledge, skills and training’’.

The ‘True North’ tells the cadet what is the vision, mission and values of PAF.” The Blue Book is handed over to the cadet when he arrives in the academy.

Apart from improving the hardware, projects like JF-17 (Thunder), the software in the shape of human resource should also be focused upon. “The people are discouraged at times for not having the most modern aeroplanes, but we have given the vision to our manpower that we should be one of the respected air forces. Other air forces should come to you for consultation, help, assistance and ideas. You are respected if you do your job well.’’

He maintained the PAF was respected for exploiting the entire potential of the platform (aircraft). “There could be guys, who could fly to a certain target and drop the bombs and come back. He has flown. But, there could be another guy, who could fly the plane to exploit its entire potential and performance envelope and could deliver the weapon from any position. He is a better professional, and will be respected. It doesn’t matter if you fly Mirages, F-7s or F-16s, it matters how you fly them.’’

Emphasizing the need for overall improvement, the PAF Chief said the advanced air forces had brought the pilot-rejection ratio to zero, while the PAF had that of around 40-50 percent from the time of recruitment. By improving the overall screening process, he added, the PAF could bring this dropout rate down thus saving vital resources. He went on to say the PAF endeavoured, making best of the soft and hardware. For instance, he said, the PAF was making efforts to utilize its fleet to the maximum. “If we can operate effectively our existing fleet, that is, we can fly these aircraft the way we want to fly them and when we want to fly them. It contributes to efficiency.’’ By making a very small investment into the support-equipment, the performance of the air force could be enhanced many folds.

ACM Kaleem Saadat said there was a whole revamping of the air force going on, and the bottomline of the Blue Book is ‘rather than blind obedience, the air force will insist on informed obedience’. “The pilots and ground-staff should know that they are the stakeholders, it’s one team and everybody has a role to play. The values we have set for ourselves are integrity, duty and excellence.’’

On the same front, Saadat said, the PAF had also revised the rules and regulations to meet the modern-day challenges. “Organizations are run better through the implementation of standardized and up-to-date rules and regulations and not through direct commands of members of the Air Staff.

Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat was born on 12 December, 1951. He was commissioned in the General Duties (Pilot) Branch in March, 1971 and served as fighter pilot in various squardrons of the Pakistan Air Force. He has qualified Flying Instructors Course, Combat Commanders Course, PAF Air War Course, French Inter Services War Course and National Defence Course.

During his career, he has commanded a fighterís squadron, a fighterís wing and an operational Base. He has also been the Commandant of the College of Flying Training, Risalpur. His important staff and instructional appointments include Director of Plans at Air Headquarters, Chief Instructor at National Defence College, Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations) and Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Personnel) at Air Headquarters. He has also served on various assignments abroad including posting to Turkey and deputation to Algeria. He is married and has three children. In recognition of his services he has been awarded Nishan-e-Imtiaz (Military).

I hope it is no double post, but I didn’t follow the thread and it is damn long.

Commies??? Hmmm… When will
people ever get over that Marx/Stalin psyche/phobia??? Man…
I thought this is the 21st century…

I just remember how things worked in eastern Germany. Many secrets and disinformation, propaganda…
And as the Chinese seem to like secrecy, I tend to think disinformation and propaganda is used, too.

The last pic that I saw of the J-13 ??? looked terrible like a MiG 1.42. One differnt thing: What would have both J-10 single and double seater have in common if the configuration would be that much ‘influenced’ by the Rafale ? Would it make any sense to speak any longer of the J-10 ? Maybe that’s all only disinformation. Commies like to do such thinks … 😎