AurelVariant 1: I don’t get Western equipment:
Su-30 as fighter with secondary strike role
Su-34 for maritime patrols and priority strike
Su-33 as carrierborn fighter
*all Su’s with as much commonality as possible*
Ka-27 for ASW
Mi-17 & 26 for transports
Il 76/78 as transporter/tanker/AEW
Yak-130 as advanced trainer and for CAS
Su-17/22 for CAS and strike
Some Bears for ELINT and maritime Patrols
Tucanos for basic training
And many S-300/ 400, strela’s and ZSU 23 to kill every low and slow flying enemy as well as large Bombers.
But mostly I would try to get some nice missiles and
submarines to carry them.
Variant 2: The U.S. like my country that much, they give me
everything nearly for free (Persia, Israel etc.)
F-15E+ as air superiority fighter with secondary strike role
F-16C as frontline fighter and for CAS
S-3 and P-3 for ASW and ELINT
C-130 for Transports
E-3 for AEW
EH-101 for ASW and transports
MD-600 as utility helicopter
Hawks for advanced training and CAS
Harriers for the Carrier
Texans as turbotrainer
KC-135
Many Patriots (even if they are not that good) and stingers
Some Aegis Destroyers, no US or British Submarine that would be affordable
Variant 3: I’m President not Diktator and nice to everybody. The U.S. have no strategical interest in my country and it is rich enough to buy modern equipment, only for defending.
Typhoon as “heavy” fighter with secondary strike role
and as SEAD aircraft
Gripen as “light” fighter/attack and for reconnaissance.
*Gripen with EJ-200 if possible*
Erieeye for AEW
A-310 MRTT as Tanker and for Transport
NH-90 for ASW and as utility helicopter
(used) Alpha Jets as Trainer and for CAS
P-3 for ELINT and coastal patrols
PC-21 as turbotrainer
Il-76 for Transports
Be-200 for firefighters and coast guard
S-300/400 and Roland for point defense
Selling the carrier to China. Only brown water navy. Some new Visby-class and LaFayette- class ships, some U-212, s New artillery (PzH 2000), some Fenneks and modern communication equipment for the Army. Some UAV’s for recce.
AurelAs long those disputes are motivated by the aim to get a capable and cost effective product, I am open to every argument. The problem is, we don’t know anything that is dicussed between our politicians. If someone has an idea to improve the capabilities for all partners and potential custumers without major cost overruns and delays of running projects, great. But if one partner wants additional systems, produced only by its industries, only for it’s forces without major influence on general performance, then only this partner should pay for it.
As much commonality as possible saves much money. Money that we desperatly need in this times. Especially the German politicians had to learn this lession during this project. And now we have new negotiations, nobody knows exactly about what. Many rumors but nearly no clear statements from the involved people. What gives me some confidence, is this info from Martin Rosenkranz. (Partnernations agreed in Singapore to sign up the T2 contract in mid 2004) So the Singaporian needs may be reflected in the contract. Otherwise I see no reason for faster weapons integration. The difference between block 5 and 15 Typhoons is only software wise. You can’t save money by more hardware commonality. Even systems like the DASS are plug and play systems. A new Ty has only dummies inside. The expansive hardware will be plugged in only if necessary. For me is the priority to fullfill the timetable. Additional stuff can be done only if requested by Singapore or Austria. For basic training it isn’t necessary to have all combat systems ready. So why not saving money and getting better quality by doing it step by step ?
AurelNot really. Most of the tech on that jet has been figured out and isn’t revolutionary. All the weapons and hook up off of that jet has been tested already ( example SLAM-ER ) and the radar while good, isn’t the best. The new engines generally work. A mod’d “E” model, the combat crew simulator and the history of the jet is good enough for a sales demo. Compare that to the ridiculously slow fielding of A2G weapons on to the EF2000 and Rafale.
You are right, the Eagle is miles ahead of Rafale and Typhoon. Nonetheless, there is no F-15K available for a testflight. Impossible to buy “off the shelf”. Further more, the important A/G weapons are for all nearly the same. I don’t know exactly about the Brimstone, but everything else that is planned for Typhoon has been tested yet. (A/G weapons, no Meteor etc !) For example: Stormshadow and Taurus have been fired by Tornadoes. The French like to sell their own LGB’s, but as these are compatible to standard U.S. LGB’s, Rafale should be able to fire them already or in near future.
Rafale and Typhoon prototypes and development aircraft flying for more then a decade now, I think that is long enough to solve eventual problems with the reliability. Two decades under regular use of an airforce would of course be better.;)
AurelAdditional info:
Martin Rosenkranz posted in his own forum, airpower.at, that the partnernations agreed to sign the T2 contract mid 2004.
Good. Now you know how we felt when the Germans held the project up so that Volke Ruhe (scuse spelling) could score a few political points, delaying the project, driving up costs and securing a disproportionate workshare for German industry. Don’t throw stones chap you have glass windows.
Hey, don’t blame me for the things my ex Sec. of Def. did. I didn’t like what he did, and now I don’t like what Hoon does. Has this anything to do with my nationality ?
Eurofighter is trying to sell the aircraft to a country. I won’t mention which country just take a hypothetical country who want a fully integrated tactical swing role strike aircraft that is cleared to use all sorts of A2A and A2G weapons and pods. Except that the Typhoon is only cleared for A2A and a select few air to ground weapons and pods. The opposition entries can field all sorts of air to ground and air to air weaponry and as a result the Typhoon is struck from their prefered shortlist because it doesn’t meet any of their specifications from the word ‘go’. Goodbye export manufacture and goodbye possibly hundreds of German, Italian, Spanish and of course British jobs because they couldn’t even consider a sale before the competition began.
My own little scenario: We make a new contract. Weapons integration will be faster carried out. The state X signs up for Typhoon. Because of the ambitious timetable, weapons don’t work as they should. We can’t deliver. We have to pay or even worse, the contract is canceled. We don’t sell this 20, and we don’t sell the other 130 from your list.
If some work can start earlier, well that would be good, because more airframes would have the same standart. But I don’t like speeding up developments. There are to many examples on both sides of the channel, where the industry was much to ‘optimistic’ about their abilities, to win a contract. We know the result: cost overuns, delays, new contracts further costs…. Often quality suffers. I believe it is better to decide for a safe timetable. If a costumer can thrust in us, then I’m shure we can win contracts in the near future, too. Don’t forget: The F-15K is still a paper flyer, and the Rafale F3, too. So it is in my opinion the question in which bitter you thrust. Just some thougts…
AurelWhat the Germans complaining about unfair workshare and subsidising other peoples efforts .
So let me get this straight. You want the benefit of weapons integration and the advantages it would bring in the export market right? But you don’t want to pay for it? Well I suppose thats been the German policy the whole time so why change the habit of a lifetime?
I never mentioned workshare. This ****ing workshare system makes this plane so expansive. I wouldn’t care if BAe or Alenia or whoever had 5% more workshare. I’m shure we had a better and cheaper aircraft, if subcontracts would go the best and cheapest company, instead of this rigid national workshare bull****.
And no, I don’t think German taxpayers should pay for weapons, that are not necessary to give the Typhoon a good allround capability. There is a package agreed, including weapons that only RAF will utilize, to give Typhoon this allround capabilities. If the MoD wants more than they should pay for it. If the BMVg wants HARM, ARMIGER or Kormoran the same. And I don’t want to re-evaluate this package. No further delays. Reliability is important for exports, too. If everything comes as planned, it maybe possible to sell our own weapons to potential costumers. Not american ones. If maybe Singapore thrusts in us, they will eventually decide for Meteor, instead of AMRAAM, ASRAAM or Iris-T instead of Sidewinder and so on. To get the same quality of the product at an earlier date, you have increased costs. Stick to the damn timetable, give MBDA and the other companies the time to develop matured products.
AurelIt’s partly because of this desire from the MoD/DPA/RAF/whoever that I reckon they’re going all-out to have as much as possible integrated into Tranche 2 that the UK order might end there.
I would like to see TVC, AMSAR and so on as soon as possible, too. I would like to forget about integration of US weapons, but for Exports I think it is necessary. And I would like to see ARMIGER integrated, too. Typhoon to replace ECR Tornados. Let’s hear what the British MoD thinks about paying for specific German weapons…
AurelTranche 1 Block 5 (2005):
Iris-T, Mk80 Bombs, Paveway II, GBU 10/16
Tranche 2 Block 5 (2007):
Iris-T digital, AIM-120 C-5, GBU 24, Alarm, Paveway III/IV, Taurus
Tranche 2 Block 15(2009)
Meteor, Storm Shadow, Brimstone
If I’m not wrong, this was the timetable for weapons integration.
Feel free to correct it.
So what the hell needs the RAF more on A2G in tranche 2 ???
It is debatable to integrate AIM-120 C-5, if the Swedish integrate the Meteor at the same time in the Gripen weapons system. Maybe Storm Shadow could be exchanged with Taurus, if the British need them so badly…
AurelThanks a lot ! This is the Version I’m looking for. B-70 and F-108 … a schame that they didn’t enter service. They had been great for parades and annoying the Russians…:D And a formation of both would be nice on my desktop. Hopefully this game will be converted for PC. Should be nice for LAN-parties.
AurelHi, it has nothing to do with the -102, but as you seem to be very good informed about those old fighters, I may ask you a something. I’m interested in the XF-108. Not in the version that was build as a mock-up. I’m looking for some nice pics of the canard-delta variant. I find nothing else three-view-drawings of poor quality. Ar there ane artist-impressions of the canard-delta ?
Thanks in advance.
AurelThe date from the article was dec. 18th. It said MiG-29M2 or -SMT.
AurelWhy the gift? Feeling sorry for invading them to start WW2?
The German Secretary of Defense, Peter Struck, said: It is cheaper to give them away than to pay for disposal.
And he had often to explain… especially after the decision to go for F-16 instead of Gripen. I read often, they need the MiG’s because the F-16 can’t operate from streets, other than the Gripen. I don’t think so. I don’t know exactly, but I think the decision to give the MiG’s to Poland is older than the Polish decision for F-16.
Oh, and yes, there was a Polish delegation in Russia last november or december. Subject of talks was an SMT-upgrade.
This is a bid confusing to me, because of the partnership with EADS, belonging to upgrades of ‘NATO’-MiG’s. Maybe the Russians do the re-building of the airframes and EADS is responsible for the avionics.
AurelWouldn’t it be possible, to park this Baby near ISS ? Or is the Orbital Station on a too low orbit ? If possible, the ISS Crew could maintain it, too. No costly extra starts necessary. I think the Shuttles are back in buiseness , so the supply for ISS should be enshured.
AurelYou can guide them with an optical sight, too. This is pretty effectiv when your radar is jammed. Slow targets can be engaged this way. And the A-10 is not that fast….
AurelI read, the U.S. denied to deliver AMRAAMs for the export-Gripens.
Since the Swedish are so keen on getting Meteor as soon as possible, this would make sense. There were some discussions, to integrate MICA into Typhoon, to avoid such problems until Meteor is available.
AurelMiG-29 !!! It was in reality the reason for me to join the Luftwaffe. This Baby can do fantastic maneuvers without any damn electronics. Only aerodynamics…
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