F35bI really hope your correct about type 26. I don’t want to see the 8 get cut to 6 with the promise of some fantastic better future ship. Even if the navy get the 8 type 26 and 7 general purpose ships (which I’m doubtful over or what they will have on them) and I really hope they do the navy is still going to be short as it is now. We will have to wait and see on the export potential. Hopefully £350-£400 million cost but there is only a limited number of the reuse able bits mentioned which I think takes out any export or increase in numbers. Then will they role straight into the type 45 replacement.
I struggle to see what the UK’s plan is for its navy or armed forces in general. Still I have hope.
Back to the carriers I actually think and hope they have done a good job with them. I really hope the navy are given the chance to use them to there potential. Still not that happy about all the roles that they are expected to fulfil.
F35bThis is an interesting competition to watch. We could see some good aircraft developments coming out of this. In terms of capability as a trainer the m-346 looks good for preparing pilots in cockpit training etc. Not sure how it well it flys etc. I can’t wait to see the clean sheet designs. If the hawk still in the competition? One of the advantages of the hawk is the fact the navy uses a similar aircraft
F35bI watched it on YouTube and it was very good. The raf seem to be doing well in the transport and intelligence dept. I thought a couple of shadow aircraft would of been on display. It’s hard to find what these aircraft actually do and how good they are at it.
Hopefully in the queens 100 and 110 birthday celebrations we will see a big fleet of fighting aircraft. Unlikely for 2 reasons first being the queen will be lucky to make it that far and second aircraft probably will not be available. If what the RAF want is for fighters to do QRA and have 12 for deployment somewhere then that’s ok.
F35bWhen it comes to German and most European airforces it mostly comes down to cost. Personally the Uk and Germany could do with the tornados until 2025. Thus again is only worth while if they can have decent availability of the aircraft. F35 will not be ready for uk as direct tornado replacement by 2019. 2025 maybe. Anyway they should be for the carriers first then for other roles. I don’t know enough about the tornado to say if the German timeframe is possible. Personally the 2025-2030 timeframe will require some decisions to be made very soon. I often feel they are very good a dragging defence plans out for as long as possible. It should be possible to design and have a new aircraft in service within 10 years. Either more typhoons need bought to be in service 2020 or accept a drop in capability. Once gone the capability will not be brought back.
F35bGoing by previous fleet reductions there will be a very small fleet in 10 years and I don’t even want to think about 20 years time. 32 escorts never thought I would say those were the days lol. Right now the navy are at if not past the critical number of ships/manpower to have skills. Over 1/3rd of staff wanting to quit a sad state. Is money really the problem? I can’t help feeling the MOD are terrible at managing the money. There is a large defence budget and procurement budget and it just seems to get wasted and spent badly.
On the ocean replacement I think it is needed. £400million for a replacement should do it. Mind you is there many helicopters to put on it. I saw type 23 (HMS iron duke I think) going to be playing the enemy in the Baltic with a Seahawk on the flight deck. Has it been deployed without a helo on the back?
The Danish seem to have done quite well at making ships for a decent price. I think the RN have to go down a high/low mix of ships just to have enough. As a type 45 and most likely type 26 cost a billion each(£1000,000,000!!) if we could get 3 decent frigates for this price definitely worth it. I would take 6 type 26 with six cheaper frigates all the time rather than 8 type 26 only. Only SSN’s should cost over a billion ££ which 8-12 is really needed.
I really think numbers are just as important as high end fleet. You aren’t scared of something you have never seen.
Getting back to the carriers I think had they been ordered and the ship builders told to build it as cheaply as possible they would both be in service at 2/3rds the price. When I say cheaply I mean in construction methods not in materials.
F35bWhile the cvf will be a great amphib platform it again comes down to we have 1 deployed to do all jobs all over the world. Is it the best most efficient use of resources I don’t know. That depends on what the Royal Navy mission is in the future. I would like to know the costs on building another 1-2 hopefully would be cheaper than the first 2. Pipe dream anyway no escorts etc.
I see a much smaller force of 6 broken type 45’s lol, 8 type 26, 7 astutes, 1 Albion, 2 cvf. By the time the 8 type 26 gets in service the 45’s are on the way out.
I hope I’m wrong but hard to see a change coming. Another worry was the only 3 border guard ships. While France etc have 10 times as many. I would love to see a fleet created like an armed coast guard for patrol home waters stuff. Also use them for Caribbean/med patrols etc. Most importantly budget comes from home office, dept of transport or somewhere.
When looking for a ocean replacement is one of the smaller cv for designs a possibility? Or better with off the shelf design from other country or clean sheet design. The U.K. Seems terrible at designing/building ships in a decent budget. The time it’s takes it seems to more be a money maker/job creator for people.
I forgot we will have 5-7 river class in the mix. Not sure what to make of them
F35bAs for the CVF taking a C-130 it’s probably possible landing but not sure how it gets round the ski jump on takeoff.
The point of what if they need an f135 engine delivered was answered with they would rather carry extra spare engines on board. Seen as the carriers will probably never operate with anything close to the maximum aircraft on board they can pack it with enough spares to replace anything needed. These should be great ships but I fear will not be much use other than flag waving for at least 10 years. The amphib role for them is also worrying and risky. Use them as a helicopter platform if needed but don’t put them harms way. Much better to buy 1-2 replacement HMS oceans. Keep them cheap is a must.
As for use land based aircraft to cover the navy was tried and failed badly. Involved the RAF moving islands by few thousand miles etc. No land based aircraft can provide decent cover 1000 odd miles from land for more than an odd hour here and there.
F35bGiven the choice what would be the best aircraft for RAF as transport. Can some A400 be bought cheaply in the next 5-10 years? I think so if the users have the surplus aircraft predicted. (Germans, Spanish etc) it may work to have a group of aircraft say 12 that are surplus available to rent to all A400 users. Again this assumes all aircraft will be keep standard.
Is what is really needed a smaller cheaper transport more akin to a chinook without the large purchase/operating costs. The BAE 146 is a good cheap plane I would increase the current fleet to at least 5 transports. (Leaving the Royal planes out the 5)
As with all defence issues the main thing is the ever increasing cost. Perhaps it time to have some cheap procurement without all the bells and whistles attached. The thinking of better spec equipment needs less numbers bought has went to far. Numbers are important.
F35bIf designing an cargo airplane surely you would want as long a useable fuselage as possible not giving up the backend of the fuselage to a long ramp seemingly going from the landing gear to tail. Is it an areodynamic necessity?
F35bWhat I’m getting is the importance is sensors, avionics etc. again knowledge and current intelligence is key. The A330 was a bad aircraft to use then. Better one the comet to nimrod example. The idea of every aircraft being built to top spec to deal with higher threat environment takes you the b-2 route. Throwing grenades out a Cessna is the cheapest option. Where is the middle ground? With airforces stuck only able to afford a few types of aircraft are they best off with 20 f-35 able to deploy 2 aircraft to support a coalition or operate some kind of bomber that is more suited to the low threat environment. This is the type of war being fought for last 20 years. Does anyone really think nato are going to take on Russia or China in an offensive role? The results would be disastrous. Will they Attack us offensively I doubt it
F35bI can only think of 1 real life situation where a anti ship missile was launched in anger against a group of ships and this was in 1991 when the Iraqis launched a silkworm?? From the shore against one of the Iowa class battle ships. This is all from memory but I’m sure there was a made scramble to get the missile which involved one of the ships launching chaff, then one of the escorts using its CIWS but this targeted the chaff in error and hit the battleship then a RN type 42 destroyer possibly HMS Gloucester hitting the missile with a sea dart missile. I’m sure the anti ship missile missed its target and was then destroyed. Lessons were learned from this but it did show that its U.S. hard to Attack something unexpected.
Other attacks on ships happened in the Falklands war and these were a mixture of successful intercepts and errors that let the missiles hit. Not every situation is clear cut.
Modern anti ship missiles promise a lot and as do misdile defence systems in dealing with this threat. The old tactic used to be to have many multi layer defences. With budget cuts ships are depend on only one layer of defence and this what the ship can carry. I would rather rely on multiple systems as if one fails for layers are there to protect. What situation does everyone see these missiles being used for and by who?
F35bThe raf has 67 tranche 2 typhoons on order/delivered. So far I can only find 12 of these that have had the software update to be able to fire Paveway IV. this will include training aircraft etc. how fast this will proceed is subject to various reports giving different dates. The tranche 1 aircraft as classed as f2/FRGA 4. These aircraft can carry Paveway 2 and dumb bombs. These are mainly used for QRA snd have no been
Given an out of service date of 2016 onwards. Stromshawdow has been giving trials date of 2015 but have yet to see if this is for all tranches or just tranche 3. Brimstone is currently for 2020 but I would expect this to be accelerated
F35bU.K. Gears Up For Typhoon Enhancements
Tony Osborne Jul 09, 2014
U.K. sets course for Typhoon ground-attack capability
Typhoon Rising
A version of this article appears in the July 7 edition of Aviation Week & Space Technology.
On April 1, 2015, the U.K. Royal Air Force will stand up its fifth front-line squadron of Eurofighter Typhoons.
The reformation of II (Army Cooperation) Sqdn. at RAF Lossiemouth in Scotland will not only round off the U.K.’s deployment plans but will also mark the moment that the RAF declares its Typhoon force a truly multirole asset.
It has probably taken longer than the RAF anticipated; the Typhoon has been in service now for 11 years. But the addition of Phase 1 Enhancement (P1E) capability on the Tranche 2 fleet should help pave the way for the Typhoon to take on more of the ground-attack mission currently held by the Panavia Tornado GR4 force, which is due to retire before the end of this decade.
The addition of the P1E delivers a ground-attack capability with the U.K.’s primary precision-guided weapon, the Raytheon Paveway IV, along with a host of other improvements.
But if Typhoon is going to take on the role of the RAF’s big stick before the end of the decade, the GR4’s other weapons—such as the MBDA Storm Shadow cruise missile and the Brimstone, direct-fire air-to-ground missile—also need to be integrated to ensure there are no gaps in the RAF’s strike capability.
“Tornado will be the mainstay of our ability to conduct long-range strategic strike using Storm Shadow,” says Air Vice Marshal Gary Waterfall, the former U.K. Typhoon Force Commander, in a recent interview with Aviation Week. Waterfall is now Air Officer Commanding No. 1 Group.
“We have got until 2019, to [ensure] a correctly trained, configured and prepared force with Typhoon, with Storm Shadow and Brimstone to enable us to do that heavy lifting once it [Tornado] goes.
“I am convinced it is possible, [and] we are working with MBDA and Eurofighter to deliver it.”
“I need them [Storm Shadow and Brimstone] in 2018, as that gives me a 12-month period to enable us to replace the Tornado contribution,” adds Waterfall.
The Eurofighter consortia partners began Storm Shadow flight trials late last year, and in mid-June BAE Systems was awarded a £5 million ($8.5 million) contract to study how the Brimstone II could be integrated, a program that aims to create a common launcher system that could also drop the future Selective Precision Effects at Range (Spear) 3 networked precision-guided weapon, which the defense ministry is also said to be considering. Currently, Spear III is slated only for the F-35.
But integration of new weapons is both complex and expensive. New weapon shapes require changes to the aircraft flight-control and armament systems.
Anything we can do to replicate the size and fit of an original pod makes the integration process much cheaper, explains Waterfall.
Raytheon is working on a series of upgrades and new capabilities for Paveway IV that follow this rule. The company is introducing a new low-collateral damage warhead and penetrator capability that does not affect the weapon weight or its aerodynamics.
Typhoon already has proved itself to be effective when it comes to ground attacks. Over Libya, modified Tranche 1 aircraft were able to drop the 1,000-lb. GBU-12 Paveway II laser-guided bomb on targets, mitigating some of the risk of collateral damage. With the addition of Paveway IV however, Typhoon will be able to drop munitions on targets in high-risk settings such as urban areas, because pilots will be able to set the weapon to explode above or beneath a target or hit it at a set arrival angle.
“This is the dawning of a precision-attack capability for Typhoon,” adds Waterfall.
Approximately a dozen Typhoons are now flying with the P1E software, and the RAF plans to test the capability early next year with a deployment to the Red Flag exercise at Nellis AFB, Nevada.
The RAF has now taken delivery of most of its Tranche 2 Typhoons and is getting ready to accept the first Tranche 3 aircraft, the first of which rolled off the BAE Systems production line at Warton, Lancashire, late last year. But the RAF is in no hurry to receive the Tranche 3 aircraft, especially as these, along with the Tranche 2 fleet will become the mainstay of the Typhoon fleet until the current planned out-of-service date of 2030.
The Tranche 3 Typhoon, the first example of which was flown by BAE Systems in December 2013, features increased avionics computing and electrical power and capacity, fuel-dump capability and provisions for an active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.
“We have to wait for the formal clearances to fly, but there are finite resources do that,” says Waterfall.
“I have to think what else could I clear with those resources, and I want to make sure I can deliver on my multi-role capability on Tranche 2,” he notes.
Early Tranche 1 aircraft, however, are unlikely to see service beyond 2020. While the aircraft have proved useful in testing out new capabilities for the Typhoon, the Tranche 1s are too structurally and technically different from the Tranche 2 and 3 aircraft to be worth retaining for the future.
“We are continually looking at the Tranche 1 fleet, and we haven’t gone down a one-way street from which there is no way back,” explains Waterfall.
“Tranche 1 proved everything before it goes onto Tranche 2, but that is going to swap around in 2015 or 16, when we will stop investing in Tranche 1 and put everything on to Tranche 2 and 3.
“Tranche 1 does not feature in those plans once we get toward the end of this decade,” he emphasizes.
The Tranche 1s are instead likely to act as parts donors to help sustain the life of the Tranche 2 and 3 fleets. That recycling has made aircraft like the Tranche 3 jets more affordable for the RAF.
The consortia consider AESA, or e-scan radar as it better known it Europe, to be a key component. Eurofighter remains hopeful of achieving an agreement on the e-scan radar between the partner nations—Germany, Italy and Spain—during the summer. The RAF sees the radar as critical to keeping the aircraft relevant during the 2020s. Recent defense ministry documents, which are related to its major projects portfolio, cite that a radar will provide “full exploitation of Meteor,” the MBDA-developed long-range air-to-air missile but also list an “electronic attack”capability.
In the 2020s, the Typhoon and the F-35B Lightning II will form the backbone of the RAF’s front-line fighter force and the two are likely to be paired on operations. The RAF is now exploring how they could best be used together. RAF Typhoons and U.S. Air Force Raptors have already worked closely with each other during the Red Flag exercises, giving RAF commanders an idea how fourth- and fifth-generation fighters could be paired while simulation work is being carried out at the U.K.’s Air Warfare Center at RAF Waddington.
Simulation is also being used to help cut the cost of the aircraft’s operation. Commanders believe greater use of synthetic training will allow it to more efficiently utilize its limited training time and flying hours as it faces airspace constraints, high operational costs and the need to learn how to fly in large-scale operations.
“We have been going through a revolution in synthetic training and realizing that if we want to be good at our game, then a lot of the time we are going to derive the most benefit from flying in the simulator than in the air.
“To go out and employ the large formations that we need in order to train is becoming more difficult as the aircraft and missiles become increasingly complex and demand increasing amounts of airspace to train effectively, which is why we are exporting that training into the synthetic domain.”
Currently, front-line Typhoon squadrons receive about 25% of their training in the simulator, compared with the more favorable 65% by the Typhoon operational conversion unit, 29 Sqdn. But the force wants the front-line numbers closer to that of the U.K. F-35 force’s, which is expected to have a 50:50 ratio of flying hours to simulator hours for pilots when the type is introduced in the coming years.
As part of this investment, the force is looking to expand its number of simulators. Currently there are four Typhoon-related simulators at Coningsby and two at Leuchars, Scotland. The Scotland-based ones will move to Lossiemouth in the near future because Leuchars is being restructured as a British Army base this year. All four simulators at Coningsby can be linked. The plan is to install four more simulators—two in Scotland and two at Coningsby—with the four already in place, and link them all so joint training can be carried out from both bases.
The U.K. has a clear plan for its Typhoon fleet, and fellow partner Italy is increasingly seeing the potential for Typhoon as a ground-attack platform.
“We are on a journey with Typhoon that is not going to finish until the 2020s, and even then we won’t look back and rest on our laurels in 2023 and say, ‘look at that great aircraft, it’s all finished now.’
“I’d be surprised if it wasn’t still in service beyond 2030,” says Waterfall.
http://m.aviationweek.com/farnborough-2014/uk-gears-typhoon-enhancements
God help the UK I hope they get 24-36 F35B’s to deploy on each carrier and their UAV/UCAV’s developments lead to purchases of over 100 aircraft.
F35bThis is from the RAF website. I do not see where it says anything about operationally deployable typhoons with anything other than Paveway II and dumb bombs. The numbers mentioned as being delivered are not large and when you take out QRA squadrons and the 5 in the Falklands plus the 24 passed to the Saudis and the aircraft required for training and development this does not leave anything substantial. Paveway IV and brimstone is what is carried by the tornado GR4’s so I don’t think typhoon would cut the mustard in aircraft numbers, aircrews and ground Crews trained. I know your going to say paveway IV is listed under weapons but 1 aircraft able to do this on trials does not mean full availability. I’m researching this more and I’m happy to be proved incorrect.
http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/typhoon.cfm
The Typhoon FGR4 provides the RAF with a highly capable and extremely agile multi-role combat aircraft, capable of being deployed in the full spectrum of air operations, including air policing, peace support and high intensity conflict.
Specifications
Engines: 2 Eurojet EJ200 turbojets
Thrust: 20,000lbs each
Max speed: 1.8Mach
Length: 15.96m
Max altitude: 55,000ft
Span: 11.09m
Aircrew: 1
Armament: Paveway IV, AMRAAM, ASRAAM, Mauser 27mm Cannon, Enhanced Paveway II
Initially deployed in the air-to- air role as the Typhoon F2, the aircraft now has a potent and precise multirole capability.
The pilot can carry out many functions by voice command or through a handson stick and throttle system. Combined with an advanced cockpit and the HEA (Helmet equipment assembly) the pilot is superbly equipped for all aspects of air operations.
Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain formally agreed to start development of the aircraft in 1988 with contracts for a first batch of 148 aircraft – of which 53 were for the RAF – signed ten years later. Deliveries to the RAF started in 2003 to 17(R) Sqn who were based at BAE Systems Warton Aerodrome in Lancashire (alongside the factory where the aircraft were assembled) while detailed development and testing of the aircraft was carried out. Formal activation of the first Typhoon Squadron at RAF Coningsby occurred on the 1st Jul 2005. The aircraft took over responsibility for UK QRA on 29 Jun 2007 and was formally declared as an advanced Air Defence platform on 1 Jan 2008.
Initial production aircraft of the F2 Tranche 1 standard were capable of air-to-air roles only and were the first Typhoons to hold UK QRA duties. In order to fulfill a potential requirement for Typhoon to deploy to Op HERRICK, urgent single-nation work was conducted on Tranche 1 to develop an air-to-ground capability in 2008. Tranche 1 aircraft were declared as multi-role in Jul 2008, gaining the designation FGR4 (T3 2-seat variant), fielding the Litening Laser Designator Pod and Paveway 2, Enhanced Paveway 2 and 1000lb freefall class of weapons.
All F2/T1 aircraft have been upgraded to FGR4/T3.
Tranche 2 aircraft deliveries commenced under the 4-nation contract in 2008, in the air-to-air role only. These aircraft were deployed to the Falkland Islands to take-over duties from the Tornado F3 in Sep 09.
A total of 53 Tranche 1 aircraft were delivered, with Tranche 2 contract provisioning for 91 aircraft. 24 of these were diverted to fulfill the RSAF export campaign, leaving 67 Tranche 2 aircraft due for delivery to the RAF. The Tranche 3 contract has been signed and will deliver 40 aircraft. With the Tranche 1 aircraft fleet due to retire over the period 2015-18, this will leave 107 Typhoon aircraft in RAF service until 2030.
Weapons integration will include Meteor air-to-air missile, Paveway IV, Storm Shadow, Brimstone and Small Diameter Bomb. Additionally, it is intended to upgrade the radar to an Active Electronically Scanned Array.
F35bI can only think of 1 real life situation where a anti ship missile was launched in anger against a group of ships and this was in 1991 when the Iraqis launched a silkworm?? From the shore against one of the Iowa class battle ships. This is all from memory but I’m sure there was a made scramble to get the missile which involved one of the ships launching chaff, then one of the escorts using its CIWS but this targeted the chaff in error and hit the battleship then a RN type 42 destroyer possibly HMS Gloucester hitting the missile with a sea dart missile. I’m sure the anti ship missile missed its target and was then destroyed. Lessons were learned from this but it did show that its U.S. hard to Attack something unexpected.
Other attacks on ships happened in the Falklands war and these were a mixture of successful intercepts and errors that let the missiles hit. Not every situation is clear cut.
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