NiallCORBs
Hi Melvin
Station ORBs are in the AIR 28 class – Sutton Bridge is at AIR 28/788, but this only runs from Sept. 1926 to Dec. 1940, which I think won’t help you with anything CGS-related. I can see no sign in the catalogue (which is not infallible) of an ORB covering subsequent periods.
ORB for CGS itself is within AIR 29 (Misc. Units) at AIR 29/605 with course photographs and graduates log in AIR 29/606. ORB for 56OTU (which may be useful) is at AIR 29/683.
HTH
Niall
NiallCHi Paul
Musgrave was by no means the only Whirlwind pilot attacking ships near Gravelines that night:
De Houx 2315-0005, minesweepers and barges off Mardyck (bombed and made cannon attack on one of the minesweepers, claimed as Cat 3)
Sutherland, 2345-0045, same target (bombed barges)(Sortie not recorded in Manston ORB)
Witham, 0020-0115, same target (bombed one of the minesweepers, claimed as Cat 4)
Bryan, 0040-0130, 3 minesweepers, 4 miles NE Gravelines (bombed one and then made cannon attack)
Musgrave 0110- FTR, “to attack shipping in the Gravelines area”, last plotted at 0132 by CHL, reported to Swingate control that he was making a second attack with cannon. Manston ORB has time up as 0100 rather than 0110
Brunet 0135-0215, 7 boats leaving Gravelines (bombed one, leaving it stationary and listing sharply to port, claims one E or R boat Cat2)
De Houx (again) 0150-0235, 4 minesweepers 0.5 miles off Gravelines (bombs one and claims it Cat 3)
Sutherland (again) 0210-0255, shipping near Gravelines, recalled on way out.
There were also two 137 Squadron attacks on shipping targets further east, off Nieuwpoort
In the Manston ORB there is a note about Sutherland’s second sortie: “At 0220 when off the Goodwins saw the sea very disrupted and a long stream of oil which he thought to be a crashed aircraft. it is just possible that this may have been Musgrave but very unlikely owing to the time between the two”.
So, in total we have what looks like 7 separate attacks on what may well have been the same target (or group of targets)between say approx 2340 (de Houx) and approx 0215 (de Houx again) all of which reported doing some damage.
I have some notes from a German enthusiast, sadly no longer with us, whose main interest was German nightfighter ops and who, in exchange for copies of Bomber Command material from Kew for his researches, would see what he could find in the German archives relating to some of my odd queries (including this one). His note indicates that M.345 was lost off Gravelines, at around 0010 hrs with six casualties (unclear whether casualties = killed, or killed plus injured). I’ve always believed he got this from the 28. Minensuchflottille KTB.
If the timing is correct then the first attack by de Houx is perhaps a better fit than Musgrave’s attack around 90 minutes later.
Hope this helps
Niall
NiallCHi Jerry
As far as I’m aware no Whirlwind ever carried any form of AI nor was one ever tested as a night fighter. A&AEE performed brief night flying trials with P6997 in May 41, but these weren’t to test its ability as a night fighter, simply to establish whether its flying, and particularly landing, characteristics were suitable for night operations.
As for Whirlwinds being painted Night, you can never say never, but I’ve not seen anything to indicate that they were. In the April-June 41 timeframe being discussed here the Whirlwinds were not even flying night operations – 263 Squadron did not fly its first night ops until Jan 15th 1943. Even after that, when both Whirlwind squadrons were performing regular night rhubarbs and intruders, they were also performing a large number of daytime ops in which the Night distemper would have been a real handicap. Also during this period both squadrons were extensively photographed and filmed. The Charles Brown photographs of 137 and 263 show large numbers of the units’ aircraft and the Movietone News film pans across almost all of 263 Squadrons Whirlwinds. All look to me to be in standard MSG undersides.
My guess would be that this recollection relates to a Beaufighter (or perhaps even Havoc) unit rather than a Whirlwind one.
Niall
NiallCHi Stuart
L6845 and P6966 were delivered to 25 Squadron with a Night port wing and were repainted with all Sky undersides on the unit in early-mid June. P6967 was delivered to the squadron after the edict about Sky Type S was issued so may already have already been refinished before delivery.
This still doesn’t explain Jerrys 1941 “sighting” though as the last Whirlwind left 25 Squadron in mid July 1940.
Incidentally I think this notion that the Whirlwinds went to 25 Squadron to be trialled as prospective nightfighters should be treated with some reserve. All of the RAF’s fighters of the day were required to be capable of operating by day and night (the last pure-play day-only fighter was the Fury). The RAF had no dedicated night fighter squadrons at the time. The Whirlwinds went to 25 Squadron for what are described as Operational Trials – sending them to one of the 6 Blenheim units in Fighter Command made sense as they were the only ones where all the pilots were qualified to fly twins. I suspect that the belief that they went there for nightfighting trials comes from Dowdings comments to Beaverbrook after he had had 25 Squadron’s feedback: “Against them there is their very high approach and landing speed. Pilots tell me that they have to bring them in at 110mph and, even then, the controls are “sloppy”. This means that they can probably never be used at night. “
On the subject of Whirlwind camo – why do all the colour profiles I’ve seen show the aircraft with Yellow leading edge IFF stripes?
HTH
Niall
NiallCMatt
My understanding is that the early Whirlwind radio installation – with the mast on the canopy – could only accommodate HF (TR.9) radio. The later installation (mast on the forward deck) could accommodate both HF and VHF.
The photo you attached is of P6997 taken in August ’42 while at A&AEE undergoing trials of the bomb installation.
From the book:
P6997: 24.1.41: 51MU. 9.4.41: A&AEE for takeoff trials with 9lbs boost and to determine the effect of thickened wing resulting from the application of external self-sealing fuel tank covering. 28.5.41: Westland. 18.6.41: To AFDU for trials with Gyro gun sight. Also flown for an Air Ministry aircraft recognition film. 7.8.41: Westland.16.8.42: A&AEE for bombing trials.14.9.42: Westland. 3.1.43: 18MU. 26.1.43: 137 Sqn 24.6.43: 263 Sqn when 137 Sqn re-equipped. 11.1.44: 18MU on re-equipment of 263 Sqn. 14.7.44: Declared non-effective when Whirlwind classed as obsolete. 30.9.44: Struck off charge & subsequently scrapped by Airwork.
You’ll note that, prior to this set of photos being taken, this aircraft had at no point served with an operational squadron. So, although Fighter Command may have completely adopted VHF radio, perhaps experimental establishments (A&AEE, AFDU etc) did not? And perhaps that’s why it still appears to have an HF installation?
Niall
NiallCMatt
Not sure I can really help.
As you know the Whirlwind entered service sans IFF. Neither R.3003 (Mod 28) nor the desert equipment could be accommodated without substantial surgery to the rear fuselage: which was performed very early in ’41 on the (few) aircraft already in service (Mod 53, approved 10/1/41) and incorporated in production at around the same time.
My, admittedly incomplete, modlist, shows no other IFF-related mods until Mod 158 (the last Whirlwind modification that I’m aware of) to introduce IIFF Mk III. This was cancelled shortly afterwards, presumably because the aircraft was due to exit service and both squadrons to re-equip with the Vultee Vengeance. So, nothing specific, yet, re IFF MK II.
I know you guys are committed to ensuring that the outcome of the project is as authentic as it can possibly be, but is there a substantial physical (external) difference between the R.3003 installation and a possible Mk II (R.3061, 3078 or 3109) one?
All the best
Niall
NiallCStuart
As AgCat has said TNA are not researchers so will not go looking in a file to see if there’s material in it that might interest you, but they will copy the entire file (for a fee). I don’t know which particular file you’re interested in – the TNA search engine throws up 5 pieces in the AIR, AVIA and DSIR classes with the word Horten in the title and there are probably many more relevant pieces that don’t have Horten in the title – but I would not imagine these are large files. I suspect they contain tens of pages rather than thousands – like some squadron ORBs do. I’d also expect all of them to be paper originals rather than microfilm or fiche. Therefore the cost of copying them should be small. I would imagine paying a professional researcher would cost more.
As Edgar notes you will need to get a reader’s card – a process that will take no more than 20 minutes – and once you have one you can use it to reserve a seat and order documents from any of the PCs dotted around the place. These days documents take around 30-40 minutes to arrive at the reading room where they are put in a locker with the same number as your chosen seat. So, with a bit of luck, you should have the file you seek in your hands within an hour of walking through the door.
You can use a camera to copy documents (no flash allowed) or you can copy them using the document scanners in the reading room and either print them (chargeable) or have links to the scans emailed to you (free). If you intend to do the latter, make sure you provide your email address when you get your readers ticket.
I don’t know how you plan to get there, but Kew tube station is only a five-minute walk away and car parking at the archives is (currently) free. I’ve never had a problem getting a space in the car park – particularly when I drove there on a day when the archives were closed. TNA is closed to the public on Sundays and Mondays, Bank Holidays (and the Saturdays and other odd days around them) etc, so check the website for closure dates before planning your visit.
HTH
Niall
NiallCHi Stu
You’ve a choice of 6 or 7:
1.P6979, 24/10/43, flak-damaged during attack on blockade-runner Munsterland at Cherbourg, force-landed nr Digosville. Len Gray POW. Len died last year.
2.P7005, 2/3/43, shot down by flak north of Boulogne, Sgt George Walker POW. Died in the late ‘50s/early ‘60s.
3.P7042, 4/9/41, shot down by 109 of JG2 off Cherbourg. Sgt Geoff Buckwell, injured, POW. Geoff died some years ago. (Perhaps this one doesn’t count because the aircraft went in a couple of miles offshore)
4.P7054, 23/1/43, hit by flak, force-landed, WO Alec Doig evaded, but captured on the 27th and POW. Unsure if he’s still with us. According to his liberation questionnaire he was from Northolt.
5.P7095, 23/1/43, force-landed nr Arras after flak damage. Grave of PO Alfred Brown subsequently found by MREU. Cause, circumstances and date of death uncertain.
6.P7109, 31/10/42, shot down by flak nr Etaples. WO Frank Waldron POW. Died in 2000.
7.P7113, 23/9/43, shot down by flak over Morlaix, George Wood parachuted, evaded and still with us.
HTH
Niall
NiallCWhat would Cat Z2 have meant in terms of damage to the airframe?
Z2 is “Beyond economical repair – to be struck off charge and disposed of as scrap”
i.e not even suitable for spares/component recovery (which would be Z1)
Niall
NiallCSturtivant and Burrow’s ‘Fleet Air Arm Aircraft 39-45’ offfers: Fulmar N1910 – Apparently mistook East Fortune for Drem on first night landing from Drem. Flew into trees 200 yards off Good Row, Whitekirk, 5m E of Drem a/f, 1.5m from East Fortune. Cat Z2. 18 Jan 44. Sub. Lt. DPH Boniface, RNZN killed.
N1910 is shown as having been converted to NFII spec and being on the strength of 784NAS at the time.
Niall
NiallCKeith
There is a substantial amount of Ultra material at the The National Archives in Kew – albeit a tiny fraction of the whole.
There are 2 main series of records
1. DEFE3: these are (mainly) the teleprinted copies of the original decrypts as sent to the Office of Naval Intelligence. They are primarily naval in nature, but do throw a little light on some Luftwaffe operations where the Luftwaffe communicated its intentions to the Kriegsmarine (e.g. maritime recon) and throw a lot of light on Fighter and Coastal Command’s anti-shipping efforts. Within DEFE3 there are also several series of material from the Middle East (the “Cairo series”), a series of decrypts of the Hagelin C38 cyphers used by the Italian navy and some Japanese material. There are just over 1,000 files in total containing, I’d say, over 500,000 individual decrypts. Within each series the material is arranged in chronological order of time of intercept. There is no index of any description, but browsing through the TNA online catalogue will give you a view of what’s there. As part of the NA’s Digital Microfilm project the entire DEFE3 series has been digitised and is available for download from the NA website. They are currently free to download. Each file is around 250 Megs.
2. The HW1 and HW5 series: HW1 is a small subset of messages that it was thought Churchill ought to see and HW5 contains Ultra-based reports sent to allied commanders (primarily regarding Luftwaffe and army). These contain a mass of directly transcribed material from decrypts. They haven’t been digitised so you’ll have to visit Kew to view them. Again the TNA catalogue will give you an idea of what material is where.
Author Nick Beale has posted an article called “Using Ultra for Luftwaffe research” on his website http://www.ghostbombers.com which gives a lot more detail on the available record than I can here, although his primary interest is I think in a different period and theatre to yours.
Personally I don’t think Ultra was a particularly significant source of intelligence about the Luftwaffe in Western Europe during the early years of the war. In contrast to the Kriegsmarine, which had to use radio to communicate with ships at sea, or the campaigns in, say, the western desert, East Africa or Balkans where a lack of comms infrastructure forced both sides to make copious use of radio, the Luftwaffe inherited a perfectly good telephone/ teleprinter network in France and then greatly expanded it. It simply didn’t need to make such extensive use of radio for high-level signals and therefore relatively little of its traffic was vulnerable to interception.
Far more valuable I suspect was the product of Y Service: interceptions of plain language and low level cypher communications with Luftwaffe aircraft in flight. Again a great deal of this material is at Kew in the AIR22 class (and some in the files of the Air Min Directorate of Intelligence in AIR40). The Y service daily reports start at AIR22/476 (for September 39 through March 1940) and carry on from there in date order. If you want to see a sample of this material just PM me.
HTH
Niall
NiallCHi Paul
Re the Hawker PV4 (K6926) and its uncertain fate, this might be of relevance.
By coincidence I’ve been reading DTD’s progress report for the quarter ending 31 October 1938. In the “Engines” section it has this to say on the subject of the Bristol Perseus X: “51 hour’s flight endurance of this fully-supercharged sleeve valve engine, as intended for the Botha, was completed in the Hawker dive bomber before the aeroplane crashed. Flight trials are continuing in the second Bristol A.39/34 airframe.”
Not terribly conclusive I know – and the description of the aircraft as “the Hawker dive bomber” is a little eccentric for an aircraft designed to G.4/31, but, other than the PV4, I can think of no other Hawker aircraft serving as a testbed at Filton that was lost or badly damaged within this rough timeframe.
From the context of other developments described in the report I’d place the actual cut off date for it as being around the second (or possibly third) week in October – so the accident described happened between mid-July and mid-October.
HTH
Niall
NiallCI very much doubt that there was/is an ORB for Rochester because it doesn’t appear ever to have been a RAF station. As I understand it the council bought the land in the early ‘30s for a municipal airport and then leased or sold it to Shorts with the proviso that Shorts facilitated commercial or private flying from the site. There appears to be some material at The National Archives regarding this in pieces AVIA 2/689, 1289 and 1651.
23 ERFTS, which flew from the site for about 18 months before being removed to safety on the outbreak of war was also a civilian-run school (managed by Shorts) rather than an RAF-run one. It does however have an ORB – at AIR 29/621.
Niall
NiallCI was wondering if it was down to production economy of using the Beaufort wing, but surely the machine gun installation and feed system in itself would have required a greater structural redesign than relocating the lamps?
Quite so, but I think the position was that to incorporate 6 guns would take a certain amount of effort (but probably little modification to the tooling since that area is really just fresh air in the Beaufort wing) whereas to fit 8 would require the same effort plus some more to rework the leading edge (and spar?) where the landing lights were. So a compromise was made.
NiallCThe rationale behind the “Beaufort Fighter” was to provide a cannon fighter at a time when the need for one was seen as urgent, but the Whirlwind (which hadn’t yet flown let alone been ordered) appeared to be unlikely to enter service before mid-1940. The appeal of the Bristol proposal (vs. say Supermarine’s Type 327 or any other all-new design) was that it used as much of the Beaufort tooling as possible, and therefore could be put into production quickly.
Originally the proposed design carried just the four Hispanos in the fuselage and no wing armament. When the wing-mounted Brownings were asked for, late in the day, Frise told the Air Ministry that to fit eight guns would require rework of the Beaufort wing tooling because the outer port guns would clash with the landing lights. So, as a compromise and in order to accelerate production, the ministry accepted six guns: 2 port and 4 starboard.
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