stealthflankerYou have to understand, the claim is 3 m^2 detection range, when tankers, AEW&C, and bombers can easily hit 20 m^2 and thus be detected at a longer distance. The ground-based target in the other video is a bleeding 50,000 m^2 warship, for christ’s sake
How about trying to understand concept of “Maximum Instrumented Range”
There is a reason for a range scale knob or buttons you can find in every fighter radar panels. You know that there is a range where the designer deliberately put it as “Max” regardless of power aperture product.
Stealth@
Yes i know that when a radar radiate towards a ground target there is limitations.. like ground clutter/noise. That is why i said “optimal weather conditions”. And yes a 50000m2 size target may be doable at 400km range.
Well im specifically address the 3 sqm. Ideal condition yes.. but to think that it’s not capable of doing the stated range is not really a wise thought.
stealthflankerAnother interesting point about radar engineering is the air-cooled vs liquid-cooled issue. The KLJ-7A proposed for JF-17 upgrades is air-cooled, which is unusual as most high-performance AESA generate enough heat to require liquid cooling. The Chinese, in updating one of their naval ships, moved from air-cooled ESA to liquid-cooled ESA, presumably increasing its performance. Why did the Chinese choose air-cooling for the KLJ-7A? Did they manage to jump to high-performance GaN, and no one knows about it? Or does it suggest the KLJ-7A is deliberately gimped; it claims a 200+ km detection range vs fighters, which is below the scaled performance of the J-11 radar, so it might handle difficulty with X-band GaN manufacture by lowering their power output and sticking to air cooling.
Even with GaN you will have heat issue and no, unless you can show me otherwise. Let me tell you that A-class amplifier used for AESA have PAE (Power Added Efficiency) of No more than 33-40% Even less is possible like 25%. The only reason why it’s air cooled is because it wants to match already existing JF-17 cooling infrastructure. Pretty much like US AESA upgrade to F-16’s.
and air cooling suggest GaAs module because with air cooling you can cool no more than 2.3 Kw/sqm.
Oh and show me the source of 200+km range claim please.
One possibility is that the J-11 radar is already GaN; that would explain why the radar is in the L-band as opposed to the X-band. The calculations based on the projected required power output (55 kW) come out to a roughly 68 watt power output, which is a power rating known to be in the reach of Chinese L-band GaN modules and would explain why the J-11 radar is inexplicably an L-band fighter radar
What calculation you are referring to ? and How suddenly you jumped into L-band conclusion O-o ?
Do you suggest that J-11 use L-band entirely in both nose and maybe leading edge array ?
stealthflankerIs that the only claim? I mean, you can’t tell where the 3 m^2 object is, it could be 300, it could be 200, it could be 500 km relative to this graph.
As to the 350 km figure, check this out:
Back in 2005 date Irbis already been claimed at 350-400 Km range. The exact detection range would of course vary according to environment and target dynamics. If you familiar with concept of detection probability, you would understand.
Let’s have some image based on its radar screen shall we.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=12&v=cieLN4_tn0A
The Target is indeed detected in 268 km but notice the range scale at left.
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That alone clearly show Irbis is indeed instrumented to detect target at 400 Km.
Warning! Cancer post above^^..
Obviously the 400km claim is on a large sea target. A large one, like a Carrier, cargo or tanker. And it would also have to be optimal weather conditions.
Its an advs made by UAC or Sukhoi i think. Its a “official” claim in that regard
Do you know that radar detection range is more like statistical in nature ? Even with same RCS same weather condition.. you may not really detect same target at same distance. There was a time when it really capable of detecting the target in its maximum instrumented range (400 km) But there are also times when it do less like 350 or 300 Km. and all can happen in 1 day. Which is why we have so called “R50” or “R90” and why NIIP put detection probability in their page.
Be free to be skeptical. But please be informed. Given the RU MOD already specified 3 sqm as their requirement and they do accept Irbis in Service. The radar must have been able to do its job.
stealthflankerEmbedded not remote cooling is the likely future of GaN RF systems especially at the extreme SwAP optimization requirements as one would expect from a high performance fighter. Demonstrations of early concepts at relatively decent Technology readiness levels have shown up to 7 times the power density of comparable remotely cooled systems..
Well if it can bring the capacity it would be nice. The current liquid cooling technology can do about 155 KW/Sqm. but i wonder if such capacity can be carried by fighter aircraft.
stealthflankerniiet is the one producing the GaN modules and amplifiers. This is a page from their website regarding them. Said GaN Transistors are called: ПП9137А. Last year they tested Amplifier УМП2740-10D which gives continuous 10W output. Now mind you, this is probably without cooling since GaN isn’t as much as a problem for cooling as GaAS was. And apparently that is what the problems Phazotron faced with their AESA radars that the cooling structure for the MiG-35’s are not sufficient for the GaAS modules. This entire time they been working on reducing the GaAS modules in size and overall reducing the temperature let off by these devices.
Well you will run into cooling problem with GaN. Remember that GaN device have way higher output power than GaAS. If you have cooling problem with GaAS chance are you will face even severe problem with GaN. As i outlined before to make use of GaN module for fighter radar. one need like 50-60 KW/Sqm cooling capacity.
stealthflankerMaybe this will interest you stealth.
Talks about GaN modules and Russia expanding production. Said modules operate in 20W.
Thanks :3 and nice news. 20 watts rating for CW could be like hmm 80 Watt for 25% duty cycle for pulsed doppler radar application. But wish the article details about what class of the transistor tho :3 (Radar is using A-class for signal purity reason in cost of Power Added Efficiency/PAE)
And the first AESA might very well be N036 if MiG/Phazatron keep dicking around.
Which is weird given the NIIP Phazotron have basically almost decade of head start. I tried to track the timeline of the Zhuk AE based on the posters detailing specs and kinda found out that early Zhuk AE was bigger with 680mm diameter antenna and 1088 modules. But the one flying in MiG-35 demonstrator was scaled back with only 575mm diameter, apparently the scaling back was because to save time and allowing MiG-29’s original cooling system to cool the design (based on secretprojects forum discussion on same subject). Later they seems to scale it back up. and the FGA-35 starts there.
As soon GaN modules would be available, solving the overheating limitations of current GaAn ones , yes.
This mainly depends on the platform’s own cooling capacity. If you can bring at least 50-60 KW/sqm. you could make use of GaN transistors detailed in the sepheronx’s post. For comparison the F/A-18E APG-79 AESA has like 15.6 KW/sqm cooling capacity and MiG-29 have about 7.6-10.6 KW/Sqm. Both doesn’t seems capable to make use of GaN unless they have increased cooling capacity.
There isn’;t much you can do tho as PAE tend to decrease naturally according to frequency and class. The A-class amplifier used for TR module can reach at best 30-40%
stealthflankerSo i guess Irbis would be the last PESA/Hybrid radar for Russia.
stealthflankercan use something bigger XD
stealthflankerDespite being so beautiful, it’s sad that the wings killed the prospect of Su-47’s.
stealthflankerSeems fixed now. Our budget for F-5 replacement which supposed to be Su-35. Our budget is 1.140 B USD. for dunno 8-11 aircrafts + supports. 400 M USD for that which would be paid through kinda complicated counter trade. The Russians asked for our natural rubber product which in that 400M USD equals to 186,000 metric tonnes. We can fullfill it with our national production. Problem however our govt has no budget plans to actually buy the rubber from our farmers. This in turn complicate the negotiation process as we need to actually get time to buy those rubbers OR offering another product which Russia does not need.
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stealthflankerThose 4000’s must be total production including both Izd 170 and 190. The majority however would be the 190 one as it’s made export product.
stealthflankerThere is no relationship between frequency agility and whether the radar being AESA or PESA. Especially with today’s phase shifter technology which bottle necking usable frequency. We are still not in the day where true time delay phase shifter become practical. So no real comparison there. Same as LPI. Even conventional radar can be made LPI. PESA and AESA can use same tricks be it power management or playing with dwell time.
Detection range would be equal. Remember that this Chinese flanker is using same shape, as Russian one and slinging weapon outside so RCS would be big and both will see each other at basically maximum range.
stealthflankerAre Vympel have their own production plant ? As far as i know Vympel is a design bureau whose task is design and development. The plant where the missile is being mass produced can be different. It’s reasonable tho to guess that Duks do the production.
stealthflankerHe only mention that the explosive also got manufactured in Ukrainian plant. I see no real accusation there.
Plus i think PETN also used in Air to Air missile warhead. so.. those rebels could get hand from it too.
stealthflankerI would say J-16 and Su-35 have basically equal chance in BVR. Both are slinging their weapons outside so they would see each other practically at their maximum instrumented radar range. Missile range would likely be the same for RVV-SD/R-77-1 and the Chinese PL series.
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