PilotTHX“”With same thrust both engines would have the same or an equal fuel consumption however it’s right that EJ-200 burns more fuel with 100% thrust tha M88-2 with 100%. But EJ200 produces also 20% thrust.
But specific fuel consumption of the engine is not the only important point. Overall fuel consumption (drag is ONE factor) is important as well, not to say the most important point. With higher TOW it’s very likely that Rafale needs more thrust in relation to Typhoon to reach the same speed another factor for range.””
Scorpion, do you really know what is all about Fuel fraction???? and why?
simple question!
i put you on the way, the gap is closer between MAX power of ej200 and M88 than between the compactness and weight of eurofighter and Rafale!
30° ITR for eurofighter was on the 9.7t evaluation, add 1.5t and you can’t say the same! as about all the old datas you pasted from internet sources!
why they kept the first datas? why this wasn’t reevaluated with actual weight?
simple logic, take a ROVER 75, it’s 1.5t add 300kg, and you say me that your car accelerate and turn as good at max speed than before?
good night
PilotTHX“”Unlike you chaps, I can demonstrate my neutrality – I have a track record of criticising my country’s aircraft programmes when they earn it (and sometimes when they don’t), including Typhoon! And I have done so in print, on the record. I don’t ever claim that BAE are the best, nor that anything is great ‘just because its English’ and I can find great things to say about lots of French programmes, aircraft, and people. But I’d be surprised to see any of you lot making serious criticism of any major French programme or aircraft, to admit to any error, defect, mistake or ****-up and I’d be astonished to see you offering fulsome praise of any UK programme or aircraft. In short, I don’t believe that you are neutral, or balanced, nor that you’re interested in arriving at the truth, if it runs counter to your assumptions of Rafale’s superiority, and the superiority of the French aviation industry. Feel free to prove me wrong.””
since the WWII i don’t really see any french planes having flaws as the eurofighter pre services experience, even the tornado was more mature as program!
French Rafale isn’t a beast that kill all, but it seems that Dassault is experienced and always seems to anticipate things, and at most by themselves especialy when they build a new plane, as military as civilian, trying to bring something new, or making evolution and taking risk, the british defence strategy isn’t the same as the french needs, the british put more on Navy strengh expeditionary troops around alliances rather than on Air and ground capacity, France is rather attached to his independence about military , and his geopolitical place isn’t an island, who is mainly under foreign influences, so strategy is diferent!
France is about all military chain independance, it’s not turned against other or to make the grandeur of the country, no it’s wrote into laws, deep since the revolution, to be the slave of no one, but the french needs is to keep competances in all aera, in europe France alonne pay the price of an independent military, deterence, reinseignement “from helios and Horus programs till frenchlon, ok it’s not as powerfull as NSA, but it’s by our own”, MBT, fighter, electronics, aerospace, space programs, weaponery, ships building, etc….
keeping the abilities with a limited budget is quite big effort for a country like france, but even if programs ares limited, delayed, or frozen, the gov still try to keep teams alive, reduced but alive in the case of needs!
i don’t really know about british plans, but they not seems to be politically and militarily independent today, and leaving big industry parts of what they made them famous before isn’t a great way to follow, especially for the europeans, you don’t resolve deep problems in making them sexy, what i mean is that eurofighter and sharing things between europeans is a good stuff, on the good or bad days, we always learns from mistakes, but when europeans ares fighting against others europeans its silly, i mean that yanks maily lackeys armed forces don’t reflect that their futur isn’t to be decided to Washington, and the europeans money should stay in europe, even if the first product can’t competion with foreign stuffs, it’s because id like to see the eurofighter winning if the europeans gov ares francophobian rather than LM or Boeing, i’m not anti yanks, but could you imagine yanks buying and leaving their military independence to foreigners? not , so it’s not anti yank but pro european!
all that even if i don’t like the eurofighter, since the first time i seen the shape, i knew it will not be a legendary plane, personal opinion!
now about what the english do the best, i think that the Hawk isn’t as sexy as typhoon actually, but it’s, it was, and will be the best trainer and litle fighter in the world, the shape is great, have great abilities, and it’s really hard to find flaws in it, i was very disapointed about eurofighter, i thoug that BAE would keep experiences of the hawk .. the Sea king is a great helo, Lynx too, the astute subs will be a class of his own, the spearfish is unmatched, the ASRAAM is a great stuff as exemple..
The french aren’t very obsessed by english being, they don’t start any “eurofighter Vs Rafale ” topics here, and if i note each days the profusion of british press francophobian articles, it’s hard to find a french paper talking about anglophobia, abbits or gossip in a week of french press or medias!
so french, english, german etc… that doesn’t matter, i talk about Rafale, and my prefered plane isn’t french, TOMCAT broke my heart, because i will no more have the pleasure to see it catapulted, sad, i ‘ll keep my Top Gun DVD close to me, when a crise comes out! lol
PilotTHXsomes news about rafale, after TLP
http://new.isoshop.com/dae/dae/gauche/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_8.pdf
PilotTHXOH LALALALALALALLALA Catastrophennnnnnnn!
The pilot of a Eurofighter Typhoon jet narrowly avoided crashing his aircraft during rehearsals for an air show at the weekend.
A Ministry Defence spokesman said the pilot of the RAF’s most expensive plane had “got too close to the ground”.
Witnesses reported that the pilot “slammed on his burners” to prevent the aircraft hitting the ground on Friday during a practice for the show at RAF Fairford, Glos.
Jeremy Flack, an aircraft enthusiast, said: “It just didn’t look right to me. He was getting closer to the ground and everyone gasped.
”Many of us got pictures of it happening. A still photo does not do it justice because it looks like it is just taking off. But there’s no landing gear down and you can see the heat below the plane from the burners as the pilot desperately tries to save himself from smashing into the ground.”
Asked about a report that the plane had been a “split second from disaster”, the MoD spokesman said: “I don’t know about that. The pilot was in control of his aircraft. He got too close to the ground. He corrected the mistake.”
The spokesman said the pilot was one of the most experienced of those flying the Eurofighter.
He could not say whether the pilot had been reprimanded.
He said: “It is an internal matter between the pilot, his ground crew and his commanding officers to establish what went wrong.”
still somes buggs in the eurobugger?
PilotTHXanyway, no one launch an amraam to the max range on a fighter equiped with ECM, only on airliners to have a starit kill! lol
view the accurancy of the amraam, he would rather launch 3 of them to get a kill, if the plane is escaping!
PilotTHX“If you can’t tell the difference between news features written within a few days of MinDef’s announcement, and the more considered, more informed pieces written a few weeks later, after speaking to those involved, then it’s you that is ‘ridiculous’. I’d suggest that you look at what the same author wrote about Typhoon in Show News at Paris.”
who cares about a typhee british journalist writing an article to calm down his own audience in Paris about a competition and facts happened 15000kms farer?
i mean it’s singapore news papper and ministry quotes that are competents, not the speculations of biased peoples away!
PilotTHX“It should come as no surprise that regardless of the RSAF’s preferences, Dassault (still hungry for a first export order, and still smarting from rejection in Korea) were able to submit a bid that was extremely competitive on price and that was politically compelling. And make no mistake, that’s why Dassault are still in the contest, and why Eurofighter are not.”
YOU ARE DEFFFFFFFF!!!
“The Ministry of Defence (MINDEF) said the Typhoon was a “very capable aircraft” but the committed schedule for delivery of the plane and its systems “did not meet the requirements” of the Republic of Singapore Air Force.”
http://www.singapore-window.org/sw05/050421af.htm
politly, the guy say that typhoon isn’t good , and they choose the best remaning!
Typhoon exeptional abilities was in the lying machine of the british press, remember when they wrote that saddam could send a nuke missile in less than 45 mns on bliar head?
and no, at this stage they just use evaluations datas, no price, price evaluation come after on the last stage, you claim about delivery, wrong, it’s a polite argument to not explane the flaws of the plane, live with it, eurofighter lost all his challenge exept one time, but there wasn’t any competitor, hey hey!
lol
PilotTHXJacko
“Remember that what prompted my remarks was the stupid claim that Korea, the Netherlands and Singapore somehow proved Rafale’s continuing superiority. Again: Korea – Rafale rejected. NL – no formal evaluation. Singapore – RSAF preference known to be Typhoon.”
http://www.janes.com/aerospace/military/news/jdw/jdw050421_1_n.shtml
“”By ROBERT HEWSON Editor of Jane’s Air-Launched Weapons
London
A shock decision by Singapore to drop the Eurofighter Typhoon from a shortlist of contenders vying to be the Republic’s next-generation fighter has thrown the aircraft’s manufacturing consortium, comprising BAE Systems, EADS and Alenia, into disarray.
JDW understands that Singapore¹s Defence Science and Technology Agency, an arm of the Ministry of Defence (MinDef), has delivered a letter to the Eurofighter team formally discounting the Typhoon from the NFRP competition.
While no official statement has been made by Singaporean authorities, and the Eurofighter partners have declined to comment, several sources close to the programme have confirmed the unexpected development.
The Eurofighter sales effort in Singapore is being led by BAE Systems.
Singapore’s letter of rejection was delivered to BAE Systems’ local office late last week. JDW understands that issues of pricing and the reliable release of capability within the RSAF’s required timeframe were the key concerns that derailed Eurofighter’s bid. Until recently Eurofighter was confident that its performance in Singapore’s 2004 evaluation had gone a long way to answering critics questioning the aircraft’s capabilities. The securing of funds in December 2004 for Eurofighter Tranche 2 production and development was also seen as a significant boost to Eurofighter’s export prospects. “”The Ministry of Defence (MINDEF) said the Typhoon was a “very capable aircraft” but the committed schedule for delivery of the plane and its systems “did not meet the requirements” of the Republic of Singapore Air Force.”
now you are ridiculous, or maybe you don’t read in english?
PilotTHXTMor:
There has been no formal Dutch evaluation of Typhoon. One senior officer having one flight in the aircraft does not represent an evaluation. Or do you think that the USAF evaluated it when Jumper had his jolly?
Korea unarguably selected F-15 over Rafale. Using Korea as an example of Rafale’s supposed superiority over Typhoon is thus rather silly.
Singapore. Typhoon was preferred by the RSAF. As I’ve written. As Doug Barrie, Nick Cook, Rob Hewson, Craig Hoyle, Jon Lake, and virtually every aviation journo who has had any insight into that evaluation wrote. Ah, but then we’re all anti-French, I guess. All amatuers likely to be duped by BAE Systems and EF GmbH.
Both Norway and the Netherlands originally saw Typhoon as an alternative to more, newer F-16s. Both now see it as a potential alternative to JSF. Norway has just increased its industrial participation in Typhoon above that in JSF. The Netherlands remains outside the programme. Rafale has been eliminated by both nations.
Austria has bought Typhoon (I agree, I’d have thought Gripen more suitable for their needs). Greece selected Typhoon. Neither nation selected Rafale.
How many of those 234 Rafales are on contract, again? The Typhoon umbrella contract covers all 620 jets, and production contracts have been signed for 420 (402 + 18).
korea time march 2002,
“The French envoy also expressed concerns that the Seoul government may yield to U.S. pressure to buy Boeing’s F-15K, citing allegations that the Defense Ministry is favoring F-15K in consideration of its long-standing security alliance with the United States.
Last week, the French daily, La Tribune said that Dassault might not win the South Korean project because of political reasons even though its Rafale jet proved superior. South Korea’s secret military report recently showed that Rafale fighters beat all its competitors, including Boeing’s F-15K, during last year’s test flights. “
hope yours litle views will be clear now!
as about austrian, they hadn’t the choice, and what is the issue about making more planes, when you make a sheeeet, even at 120000 items, it still a sheeeet! lol
PilotTHXAh yes. These great success stories for Rafale. That’s the same Koreans who bought F-15 rather than Rafale (and who did so during that window when Rafale was mature enough to be credible, and Typhoon wasn’t), the same Dutch who never evaluated Typhoon (except on paper) and the same Singaporeans who made it abundantly clear that their favoured choice was Typhoon. B*gger me they were all highly impressed by Rafale, weren’t they?
Wrong, first you just have to go back to preschool and learn a bit more, Koreans favorite was Rafale, and it marked exelent over the 5 mains requirements, and all was quoted by Koreans newspapper, the Bush pressure was enough to buy the F15k hey, as the Dutch, uhmm they was simply to purchase the LM next product on politics, the evaluated planes and rafale was second, not the typhoon, zorry, as about the Singapore, the Typhoon report wasn’t done by local pappers, just by british tabloids, do you see the diferences with koreans? and if he was better why they rated and choose the Rafale over it? i translated news papper there, and it show the “british overated the performances in pappers” zorry!! the greeks was to do as austrian not to challenges performances on differents planes but to follows the pressures of the germans , but the seen the plane, and escaped it, oofff!
Or how about the four major league European nations who have ordered 620 aircraft? It impressed them.
yaa, Tornado is a clear exemple of it, sold to saudies on politics and oil exanches, now they seems bored to repair the bird each week, Dassault sold more M2k and they was alone!
Where French military might and prowess rules supreme, and has never been sullied by inconvenient and unrepresentative glitches like Trafalgar, Waterloo, Franco-Prussian War, 1914, 1940, Dien Bien Phu, Algeria, etc……
good to you to wrote 5 defeats where french was involved, 1914 is a victory not a defeat for the french, as WWII was “world” and international, and that was allies against the nazis, it’s fair to put the french aside when 300000 british swimed back home and all others europeans was invaded lost when fascists! and waterloo lol… i don’t write about the numerous british deafeats, the germans, the italians of spainish defeats over the history! as the french ruled britain and not only founded them, you write in english using 2/3 of french words, thx to the french, mate..
i will just resume in quoting not one, but 25 years of Napoleon army victories because this guy just won more than Alexander and Ceasar together!
Valmy
Jemmapes
Fleurus
Montenotte
Lodi
Castiglione
Arcole
Rivoli
Les Pyramides
Aboukir
Alkmaer
Zurich
Heliopolis
Marengo
Hohenliden
Ulm
Austerlizt
Iéna
Friedland
Sierra
Essling
Wagram
Moscowa
Lutzen
Bleutzen
Dresde
Hanau
Montmirail
Montereau
Lagny
Lille
Hondschootte
Wattignies
Arlon
Courtrai
Tourcoing
Weissembourg
Maestricht
Aldenhoven
Landau
Neuwied
Rastadt
Etlingen
Neresheim
Bamberg
Amberg
Friedberg
Biberach
Altenkirchen
Schliengen
Kehl
Engen
Moeskirch
Hochstett
Wertingen
Guntzbourg
Elchingen
Dierstein
Hollabrunn
Saalfeld
Halle
Prentzlow
Lubeck
Pultusk
Eylau
Ostrolenska
Dantzig
Heilsberg
Landshut
Eckmulh
Ratisbonne
Raab
Mohilew
Smolensko
Valontina
Polotsk
Krasnoe
Wurschen
Loano
Millesimo
Dego
Mondovi
Roveredo
Bassano
St Georges
Mantoue
Tagliamento
Sediman
Mont Thabor
Chebreisse
Bassignano
San Giuliano
Dietikon
Mutta Thal
Genes
Le Var
Montebello
Le Mincio
Caldiero
Castel Franco
Raguse
Gaete
Le Bastan
Le Boulou
Burgos
Espinosa
Tudela
Uclez
La Corogne
Sarragosse
Valls
Medelin
Maria-Belchite
Almonacid
Ocana
Alba de Tormes
Vique
Lerida
Gudad-Rodrigo
Almeida
Tortose
Gebora
Badajoz
Tarragone
Sagonte
Valence
need more?
Joking aside most of us view the Rafale as a great achievement by any standards, and a magnificent one for a single European nation. Second best to the product of the combined aeronautical talent of Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain is something to be hugely proud of – especially when it’s such a close second, and especially after Dassault managed to get their aircraft into service first, and have even had it operating off a carrier. But let’s keep the debate grounded in reality.
we are in reality, lots of F14 F18 F15 tornados feld the noze of Rafale in their hass, and they was impressed , time to get back yours feet on ground!
adieu!
PilotTHX“They payed 60 million Euros for that trash and Dassault will put pressure to FAB upgrades those planes and that will cost at least 300 million Euros.
Is this your concept of gift?”
so now dassault rules Brazilians air forces, and 300m of what?
do you really beleive that retrofit in dash 5 will cost 300m euros? lol
for 12 planes?
there ares lots of air forces that would like to pay 5m a trash m2k RDI that made his proofs all around the world?
Colombian drugs is stronger, you are right!
PilotTHXLOL… Scorpion, you’re too good… The guy didn’t even try to prove any thing !!! 😉
prouver quoi? loufok!
t’es aveugle, ou alors tu lis pas tout?
et toi tu prouve quoi, que t’es un blaireau qui traine sur le net pour vegeter autour d’un sujet qui pourait enluminer ta vie?
ou alors ton grand pere projete d’acheter un eurofighter pour faire planner grand mam pour la derniere fois?
quand tu demande au autre d’etre cool, et que t’as meme pas le cortex d’une mouche pour donner des arguments qui sorte pas du JOUST donnants des elements sur un oiseau prevu athletic dans les années 90, ou de la branlette speculatives sur un produit dont les lois aerodynamiques et performances de vol on surement prit un grand coup dans la tronche depuis que le noison est nourrit a la choucroute et qu’il a prit 15% de cholesterol!
alors zy va, explique toi!
de la logique mon vieux!
PilotTHX“”So what do you know about Eurofighter Typhoon to judge about it? Not much as I can figure out of your posts which are like “Eurofighter with it’s 80’s cockpit” etc. Your are at least the person which makes it self ridiculous.””
it seems that cockpit
is closer than this one
rather than this one
or this one
so about pueril and uninformations, you can turn around youself, what is constructive in yours biased comments?
yours datas ares the junks that run on the net, mainly based on the speculations that builder delivered in 1996 when the plane was 1.5t lighter!
keep it for yourself, a plane taking 1.5t on 30 years of active services on upgrade is already suspicious, but in 6 years on a called “new fighter” that isn’t and wasn’t in operational fit and wasn’t upgraded is more than convincing about the lack of pace the designers sunk down, with one crash and lots of lost challenges around the world, you could convince a newby, but not a airforce that don’t put politics over a rather efficient plane !
simple logic, no blah blah there
no regards
PilotTHXbecause Dassault payed bribes to Lula and did a gift to get them 12 m2k for 60m!
what kind of marijuanah do u smoke!
PilotTHXme pueril????
lol
“Rafale/Typhoon:
Top Speed: M 2/M 2,02
Top Speed at S/L: 1390 kph (M 1,14)/1390 kph (M 1,14)
Supercruise: M 1,2/M 1,2-1,3
Ceiling: 18000 m/18000 m
Climb rate: >305 m/sec /~315 m/sec
Climb time to: 40000 ft in <2 min/42000 ft 1,5 min
G-Load: – 3,2 to 3,6 g/+9 g /-3 G/+9 g
g-acceleration: 10-12 g/sec /15 g/sec
ITR: 32°/sec />30°/sec
STR: 24°/sec /25°/sec
Operational AoA: 32°/30°-35°
Rollrate: 270-290°/sec /250°/sec
range on internal fuel: >2100 km/2600 km
ferry range: 5593 km/3700 km+
max. CAP range: 1853 km/1389 km”
pueril is the guy that know nothing more than chauvinistic, optimistic or biased datas over the net, or immaginaries quotes from “pilots” that he takes as accurate or worst “the truth”!
so, open yours eyes, and as i said that isn’t insulting le ridicule ne tue pas!
insulting is when a guy can see the ferrari green, and try to make beleive to others when thousands see it red!
so get a life!
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