is it me or does the Bristol 188 look remarkably similar to a certain American design we all know and love? Could this be another case of American strong-arming of the UK Aerospace industry?:eek:

Not likely.

Yes, something like that on the allied aircraft shot down during Desert Storm 1 would be great. I don’t mean mortally injured pilots, but plane wreckages.

I personally think that lawrence’s theory about people rushing to the crash site to get pictures and use them for propaganda is not based on any reasonable facts.

Are you serious? Have you missed all pictures of downed helicopters being lauded over by locals and camera men alike? Sure if its a plane that has come down in the middle of the western desert it might be a different matter. What is not based on facts are the inflated claims of coalition losses.

It could also be argued that buying a hull built by, say, DCN in France, and just finishing it in India would have been a better bet. The design could have been a lead ship for the IAC, and give the yards an opportunity to work out what they are doing, without risks of botching the first ship! It would have been a much better deal, and avoided a lot of the problems that are being experienced now, not just with the Vik, but with the IAC project. With a CdG derived IAC design, the first Indian built hull could well have been almost finished by now.

The big question is going to be how much damage this does to Indo-Russian relations. Perhaps the best thing would have been to buy a semi off the shelf design from Europe to fly off them. Perhaps even tie in the IAF’s MRCA project with it, and increase the order by a bit, to get the Indian Navy a couple of dozen Rafales.

Thats exactly what I was trying to say, working with a European yard could have allowed India access to some of the latest design and construction processes and technologies as well as a modern vessel with a bit of forward planning the Indians could have said to at least three if not more European yards we will want three boats, what can you offer us, then done a deal whereby one Unit was built in Europe giving time for tech transfer and a rapid build to replace the old Hermes with the other two being built in Indian yards with support from the designers.

‘Only game in town’ is something that is going to be heard a LOT in regard to this nascent little fiasco.

Dont believe a word of it.

Both DCN and Bazan had been engaged by the IN, years prior to the Gorshkov offer, under the auspices of the ADS programme. Bazan had offered the BSAC220 design as an optimal solution to the IN requirement – which is precisely what it was back in the mid 90’s.

Even now Gorshkov isnt the only game in town as the expenditure now being dumped into trying to make the sow’s ear into something more purse-like could easily be assigned to a more practical and useful vessel. The Russians could, surely, have little ground for complaint if India cancelled citing breach of contract!.

They could instead easily buy a simplified Navantia BPE or Hanjin Dokdo type design to continue the deployability of the current IN SHAR fleet and, upon SHAR retirement when IAC comes into service, become an extraordinarily useful rotary-wing only amphib/ASW asset. Both of those designs have production orders in place currently so adding an additional hull could be very, very reasonable and both will see India, in future, benefitting from a larger consumer base for spares etc. The lead Korean vessel was, seemingly, completed in about 24 months so the IN could even anticipate sea trials and commissioning in easily the same timeframe as the Gorshkov is expected to be ready in as of today.

If there is one thing that the Gorshkov ISN’T its that it isnt and never was the ‘only game in town’.

Exactly, it is an absurdity to say that Gorshkov was the only game in town. There were plenty of games in town, most of them better than the Gorky. As a result India ended up with a lump of scrap that seems to have come with zero work share and zero tech transfer.

Does anyone know what stage of development the Hawker P.1121 reached before it was cancelled? Did it ever fly?

It never flew but it got as far as the prototype being under construction, IIRC the fuselage section still exists somewhere.

insults ? you resort to wisecracks on smoke machines and if I call you a wiseass you are offended ? :rolleyes: anyway, my question was, did AW&ST publish the reports that you are talking about ? if not, just say no, dont need to question their reliability.

OMG!!! This is the most basic rule of source analysis!:eek: You question the reliability of every piece of information in every article! You dont just assume that becouse something is in a respected publication that it is true!:eek:

Anyway was it not AW&ST that published the PSed pictures of China’s supposed 5th gen fighter?

I believe it is very important for them. SSBN’s in your fleet makes all the difference.

Why? Who is threatening a nuclear strike on China? These vessels are an exercise in Great power ego not a response to a realistic threat of nuclear attack. Their operation or otherwise does not for the time being threaten Chinese security.