sealordlawrenceI think we can agree that Russia has produced more naval vessels in the last to decades than has Ukraine. However, I have no idea about production of commercial ships. I would think the skilled workers mentioned above are not be produced solely in naval yards. So, any insights into production at commercial yards in Urkaine and Russia?
And yes, labor is mobile. On some of the pic of Gorshkov, there was a display of some food left by dockworkers. Based on the foods, I recall wondering where the dockworkers were from: I got the impression that at least some might were oriental. Now I know russia stretches way east so perhaps its nothing but might russia not employ skilled yard workers from Asian countries when faced with shortage of skilled personnel e.g. Vietnamese, Indians or even Chinese?
Entirely possible, but these may be hard to come by based on the strength of the Chinese shipbuilding industry. The delays that current Russian surface programmes are experiencing (and these are not exactly ambitious units) shows the problems they are having.
sealordlawrenceSays who? After what has been done in Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Combodia, Cuba, Iran, Dominican Republic, Salvador, Nicaragua, Grenada, Panama, Colombia, Venezuela, Labenon, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, in the name of “Peace Keeping”, will you shut your mouth? And if you wont, I’ll start posting individual episodes with dates and details. And by the way, “Peace keepers” accept their naked involvement in all mentioned cases. There is a reason why one country is so much hated by the rest of the world. Boy there should be a limit of shamelessness. Saddam did’nt kill as many people during entire 40 years of his dictatorship (1963-2003) as many were got massacared (~1,033,000) directly or indirectly since 2003 in the name of “Op Iraqi Freedom”. Freedom? from whom? Saddam or from their own lives? Even former USSR could’nt kill as many Afghanis during 10 years of Afghan campaign. If there is only a tiny bit of honor and self respect you (or people alike) have, you would stop blaming other countries for harboring or supporting terrorism.
Says me. Pakistan lost control and now it is a bankrupt state wracked by continuous militant violence.
sealordlawrenceSkilled workers are created in technical institutes / universities / etc. They then need to follow directions on a blueprint. At least that seems to be how this stuff works?
That is absolutely not how it works! You do not just give someone a theoretical background in something and let them get on with it. It takes years and years of accumulative experience and on the job training to make a truly skilled worker!:eek:
I bet you also think that a one year training programme will make a Caucasian peasant into a soldier of the same calibre of a fully proffesional Royal Marine trained and conditioned in very well funded institution with hundreds of years of continuous development and experience?:rolleyes:
sealordlawrenceLOL!? This is a baseless claim.
So you need 1000 carrier experts? 10,000? 100?
Or what? What sort of worthless discussion is this?
You need as many skilled workers as you need. Not just carrier experts but machine workers, steel workers, welders etc etc. The Russian shipbuilding industry spent two decades in degenerative decline during which new skills were not introduced and existing ones were lost as shipyard workers died or retired. The effects of this are being laid bare by the long delays being suffered by the new build surface units.
You massively underestimate how complicated and difficult it is to build a new warship and how important people are in that process.
sealordlawrenceAnd I’ve never said the Russian shipbuilding industry has no problems.
Looks like we are good to go then.;)
sealordlawrenceNo but it does mean that to the extent there is a skill base left it is in Russia and not in the Ukraine.
I never said otherwise, but the problems of the Russian shipbuilding industry are well known.
sealordlawrenceIn the last 2 decades, the Russians have built more naval ships than have the Ukranians.
So? Does not mean that the Russian shipbuilding industry a world leader.
sealordlawrenceAlso without the transport FRES can remain on the back burner well into the next decade
Whether there is A400M or not FRES will be staying on the back burner, or at least the wheeled version will be. FRES scout might have a brighter future. The big spend on vehicles for the Afghan operation was effectively the final nail in the programmes coffin. The two projects to watch are the Piranha order for FRES (the production contract has still not been signed despite selection months ago) and the Harrier fleet (an as yet unsigned long term maintenance contract).
sealordlawrenceThat is not the comparison that is appropriate though is it Gate – as I suspect you know full well.
SHAR FA.Mk2 came out against a Tornado F3 that had Skyflash and couldn’t employ AMRAAM as it had no ability to update the missile midcourse. It had Foxhunter which offered little advantage over Blue Vixen and offered nothing spectacular WVR.
Far from being 50% of a Tornado F3, when it first flew, Sea Harrier FA Mk.2 was 60-70% of the interceptor F3 was PLUS 100% more in attack capability. SHAR was the only swingrole capable jet in UK service up to its withdrawal from service.
Harrier GR7/9 is NOT going to be disbanded. The Carriers are NOT going to be scrapped this time…millions in orders have already been placed for equipment which just wouldnt fit on a smaller carrier…a smaller carrier that would not offer the ‘purple’ credentials that justify the CVF in the first place anyway.
We are in silly season boys and girls….the next thing the RAF will be trotting out is the disbandment of the Red Arrows as a costly and unnecessary expense, this is done annually around review time. Its no shocker that the RN have allowed the information out that we are ‘too poor’ to guard the Falklands properly these days at this time of year either.
The Army have it relatively ‘easy’, and please forgive me for putting it that way, at the moment because their relevence is manifest. The RAF somehow have to justify a lot of Typhoons that are plainly unnecessary when tankers, airlift and ISTAR are sorely lacking and the RN has to carry the nuclear deterrent can single-handed and, despite the very obvious seaborne logistics lines to current operational theatres, has to justify everything bar the Royal Marines.
Excellently put. I would however warn that the reason the Harriers have been suggested is that they are not tied into a maintenance deal like the rest of the RAF’s platforms, thus scrapping them would not involve big payouts to BAE and RR. However I agree that even the RAF would be loathe to loose a type that has bee so heavily used in Afghanistan.
The wider problem for the RAF is that it is service without a purpose, in many ways its conception was flawed and it is now left without any strategic capabilities beyond a few large transports and whose roles could easily be transferred to the Army and Navy.
sealordlawrenceI am not taking any sides, merely saying that we should not look each at event in isolation. Pakistan has accused India of terrorist activities in Pakistan too; there was a RAW agent on death row in Pakistan some time ago for carrying out bombings.
India has also been sponsoring Balochi separatists
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008%5C11%5C28%5Cstory_28-11-2008_pg7_14
Again my point is that Mumbai attacks didn’t come out of the blue. Both countries have been trying to get one up on each other. They could join forces and work for the development of the entire region.
I am not sure what moral high ground western nations have any more in these terrorist attrocities, they were arming Saddam, dealing with these same jihadis to hurt Soviets and calling Mandela a terrorist back in time.
Pakistan is a unique case, it has taken its embrace of terrorists to the extreme and now it is paying the consequences as it progressively looses control of its own territory and its economy implodes.
sealordlawrenceInteresting enough, this incident received much more flashlights than the fatal crash of a F-18 in a residential area of San Diego. With utmost respect to the fatal victims of both tragedies, I must say that some people seem to feel delighted to see a dead man in a Russian vessel. This behaviour is not new.
That is completely incorrect and a deliberate attempt to distort reality.
The F18 incident has been far more widely reported in the open press and nobody here has at any point expressed any ‘joy’ at this absolute tragedy. All I have seen is sadness and anger at the loss of yet another life onboard a Russian warship.
sealordlawrenceLike I said, if this was a fire in a house with a fatality, it would have made no news. This happened to be on a Russian Navy boat, so it must be significant news. Especially on the state of the better, more important part of the Navy. Or not! It’s a Krivak II for crying out loud – and it’s damn relevant if you have any basic sense of logic. When was the last time, except for the Kursk disaster, that an actual routine, combat-training exercise went wrong? Sure wasn’t even the Nerpa accident, as that was trials.
If Kuznetsov sinks in its upcoming deployment, or if Neustrashimy explodes, or Pyotr Velikiy falls apart – I’ll agree with you on the ‘dire’ state of the RuN.
So what if it is a Krivak II? It should still not be killing its crew, and this fits into a pattern of fatal accidents in the Russian Navy.
The house analogy is fundamentally flawed and shows a lack of understanding, a house is not an institution and certainly not a fighting one. If this incident was a one off then it would be different, but it is not a one off it is just another in a long line of RuN tragedies.
sealordlawrenceWhy do you guys bother arguing with someone like sealordlawrence?
Just ignore him.
The above tranlates as ‘I have no evidence to counter the arguments being made so I am just going to winge linke a baby’.:mad:
sealordlawrenceWith all due respect, we don’t know the facts of the incident. Let’s extend the sailor some respect — he did give his life in line of duty.
We know for a fact that this is yet another incident of a sailor dying on a Russian ship in a non-combat scenario. What is truly depressing is that the suicide and murder rate in the Russian army is even higher!:eek:
sealordlawrenceNot relevant to this thread but,
Both countries have been blaming each other for everything since independence. I hope they break this cycle and work for regional peace. As far as India’s allegations go, majority of Pakistani’s think they are fabricated. Terrorism is a common problem now and both should solve it together.Just today a second Indian was arrested for these attacks, its not all Pakistan based groups. They had a lot of local help too. Hopefully we will see all the truth in due time, as investigations progress.
Pakistan has sponsored numerable terrorit groups and provides safe havens to others. Pakistan is a terrorit state whose terrorist activities are bringing it to the brink of state failure.
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