Firstly I have to say that this thread has an element of trolling about it. Secondly it is just harmless fun, it is bored soldiers having a bit of fun, nothing more- get over it.

before we get carried away we should remember that the Varyag has yet to sport any sort of military equipment, be it weapons or sensors, or any form of aircraft handling equipment (with the possible exception of what may or may not be an anti-slip coat of paint on the deck). There is even an as yet inconclusive debate as to whether or not the ship has had engines installed since being in China.

Why does everyone thing that a CATOBAR carrier based aircraft is incapable of STOBAR operations?

The reality that any Western carrier based fighter is just as able to take off from a STOBAR carrier as any MiG-29K or Su-33!

Off course, a skijump is a poor substitute for a steam catapult for non-STOVL operations. CATOBAR is a superior operating concept compared to STOBAR. Even the Soviets accepted this, but were force to abandon catapult development for financial, technical, and political reasons. The Soviets were building too few carriers to justify the development of steam catapults, and it didn’t help that initial development had apparently been problematic. Another factor was the hostility of the MiG and Sukhoi OKBs toward steam catapult operation because both the MiG-29 and Su-27 had high mounted nose land gears that were fundimentally inappropriate for tow bar-style catapult attachment.

So, the Rafale M could have operated from the Vikrant (ex-Gorshkov) just as the MiG-29K will (eventually). The IN actually prefered the Rafale, and was willing to embrace a smaller inital order, with the prospect of future follow up orders.

do you have a source stating that the Rafale can operate from STOBAR carriers?:confused:

Personally, I think India should have purchased the first of its ADS Carriers (i.e. Project 71) directly from a European Yard. (Italy or Spain?) Then she could build follow on ships domestically. This of course has the advantage of getting a new ship from day one. Further, India would have one class of Carriers with the benefits being obvious to all. Especially, with regards to support, logistics, training, manning, etc. etc. As for aircraft types I would have gone for the Rafale. As it offers the technology of the West without the strings of the US or Russia. Note: The Rafale would also be a excellent choice for India’s forthcoming MMRCA. So, the advantages of scale could have benefits for both Indian Services. (i.e. Air Force & Navy) While, the short-term cost for a pro-European selection maybe higher initially. I believe the long-term cost would be lower…………….IMO

It seems that we agree entirely on the carrier issue. However I have to dissagree with the Rafale. It would have required US catapults (at the time not viable and even now not desirable). This would have pushed up the size and complexity of the ships and thus their cost as well. Furthermore the Rafale would have been significantly more expensive to procure than the Mig-29K. Also remember that the Fulcrum has commonality with about 70 aircraft in the IAF and potentially a further 126.

At the end of the day if you have a problem with something like the war in Iraq you have every right to protest, to wave banners, to write articles, to lobby politicians and to vote against the politicians that support it. You do not have the right interfere with military operations and threaten the lives of serviceman. Accepting that you do not always get your way is part of living in a democracy. These guys crossed the line and got off lightly for it.

My take on this is simple. The Mig-29K was the only realistic aircraft option for the IN for political and financial reasons. The Rafale and a suitable carrier would have been prohibitively expensive and the need to rely on US catapults worrying. At the time the US route was out for similar reasons, cost and politics. Considering the technology that has since been displayed on the Mig-35, the Mig-29K seems like a sensible choice with good potential for future upgrades.

However the decision to buy the Gorshkov seems to be a mistake. It was effectively a rusting hulk needing a complete reconstruction and will still be poorly designed to function as a true conventional carrier. On the other hand India could have gone to France, Spain, Italy or the UK and had a carrier designed to their specifications. The first unit could have been built in the chosen country to speed things up whilst a significant technology transfer could have been made allowing future units to be built in India. It would have given fleet commonality, purpose built brand new ships, a very high level of technology transfer with a very big gateway into the European warship industry and the IN could still have had the Mig-29K.

The moderates do talk and are stepping up, but you see the problem with our media is they prefer giving airtime to controversial figures, this really does not help. If these people who talk out extreme views were cut out and not given the time of day it may limit other people following them. And yes its definatly high time the west if it really does believe in freedom and democrasy start to push these ideals into countries they have chummy chummy relations with. When I say this I mean stop guaranteeing security of arab royals in return for oil and other financial gains.

When you prop up dictators, royals and other elite you get regimes like the one in Iran come about, you get Saddams born and you get countless other repressive regimes. People in the Muslim world want a voice if they get one I think this would eleviate allot of their greviences and kill the terrorist recruiting grounds that alqueda and other groups feed off. What the west continues to do however is interfere in the affairs of muslim countrys this interference is antagonizing people and is giving rise to extremism.

The problem is that cutting them off does not work. Syria and Iraq prior to 2003 as well as Afghanistan under the Taliban all managed/manage to maintain brutal dictatorial regimes without western support.

Interesting combo, but only practicle in large navies that have the money to equipe with a different type of ammo, though given time the reat of the navies that use US equipment might catch on. Down here there is a lot of talk about the Metalstorm systems now that both the Israelis and Singaporeans have come on board. The Red Back system is being tested in our Army as a replacement for certain weapons, the US have trialed in on VUCAV’s and there is talk about a naval varient being made for CIWS, the practicle aplications here are undiniable.

Hmmmm seems a bit like over kill to me, besides the Bofors 57mm doesn’t have the rate of fire needed to stop a “Vampire” inbound. If they try to sup it up to fire at a faster rate then they are leaving themselves open for all sorts of trouble such as breech blocks and cracked barrels!

Well the money issue is a perpetual one for all armed forces, however South Korea seems to like its indigenous Goalkeeper and RAM combination. I would certainly agree that metal storm has alot of potential, in that sense it is a shame that the WoT is ongoing as its projects like that that are suffering.

I think the idea with the 57mm is that combined with air busting sensor fused munitions with advanced shipborne sensors should be able to intercept most threats that a Phalanx should be able to whilst having a longer range and greater versatility against surface targets.