sealordlawrence[QUOTE=kato;1329680]
No one (in Germany) really seems to like the F125. And the cost-effect situation with the F125 frankly is abysmal. It costs twice as much as what a perfectly capable Meko 200 MRV with a similar role spectrum would be sold for.
I dont give a rats **** what people in Germany think, the design is good and solid, modern and with very high rates of availability planned.
And Thales has finally found a way to make people buy all sensor, ECM/ESM and communications systems from a single supplier, namely Thales itself of course.
True, but the integrated mast system works, and very effectively, from a ship design perspective.
Actually just an overdue application of a land-based light air-defense system – a navalized Skyranger. The relevant systems integrators have been working on getting navies to adopt such systems (and the systems to be successful in their new application) both in Europe and the USA for at least 35 years, rather more. About the only other “success story” in that regard was Crotale.
So? It still exists.
sealordlawrenceAgree fully with the innovation and balance of designs coming out of European yards over the past decade.
Russia and America could learn much from the innovative designs (Absalon is an excellent example) and build quality of the ships being produced. I would think that the USS San Antonio and the INS Vikhramaditya (Admiral Gorshkov) sagas would not be possible in Europe.
excellent post.
It does happen.
sealordlawrenceShip Yards in the Great Lakes have constructed some very successful ocean going warships in the past. So, personally the location of were the ship was built has little to do with the design per se. That said, if the USN is going for a much smaller ship in in the LCS size. Seem like Trimaran Designed USS Independence would offer vastly better sea keeping……….Personally, I am hoping the USN selects the latter!:D
I never said it affected the design, just that it was a retarded place to build it.
sealordlawrenceoh my word, this is gonna be my last post on the matter, a multi use helicopter that can competently do several different types of operation -recon, attack, transport, medevac, is gonna be a better helicopter for all round use, its not the best at everything, and condsidering the hind is 30+ years old, its probably not the best for cheap running, although modern sensor refits can bring it up to more modern standards for more technically advanced roles.
Its a shame lynx and blackhawk helicopters as mentioned don’t seem to be used so much in supression roles anymore as they can’t compete as much with the hind in the international market.
sorry this thread got a bit to way, i hope others got what i was saying:p
No it is going to be a heap of junk, unable to carry a useful load, compromised as an attack platform and generally a waste of space when the UK is operating the best attack helicopter in service anywhere in the world. You are not sorry, you started this nonsense and now that you have been shown to know nothing of what you have chosen to lecture about you are desperately trying to back peddle.
sealordlawrenceDoes the UK Apache have the same engines as the US version? Are Apache engines used in anything elese? What defines hot and high?
The UK Apaches use more powerful Rolls Royce engines.
Hot and High- Deserts and Mountains.
sealordlawrenceCan’t the Lynx carry offensive weapons and troops, at the same time. Or the Blackhawk with it’s ESSS system – I take it there must be 100s of Blackhawks in Afghan, and some of them, I presume, must be configured as gunships – USAF Special Forces. So therefore there is an ‘armed troop carrier’ in Afghan.
I wouldn’t want to be underneath a Chinook either with it’s minigun (if fitted) clearing the landing strip.
Whenever I think of the Hind, I think of African warlords using them for ethnic cleansing. You wouldn’t want to see one of them coming over the horizon if it was out to get you – a pure, ugly, killing machine.
Yup, the thing is hot and high. It put on the strain and limits loads. This is why the UK Apaches have done so well, their extra engine power has allowed them to keep their Longbows and maintain flexibility. In the case of the UK the extra power is just one of many useful features that the WAH-64 has.
sealordlawrenceWhat will replace the Tornado GR4 in RAF service? The Typhoon, the F-35, upgrade/SLEP of the Tornado GR4/F3 airframe, F-15E, F/A-18E or a BAe new build stealth (doubtful)?
It obviously seems that the RAF will operate just two types of fighter, the Eurofighter and F-35, to cover all roles. They will replace the Sea Harrier, Harrier, Jaguar, Tornado and Camberra.
But can the Typhoon/F-35 carry as much, as fast, as far and as low as a Tornado GR4?
Is there anything in service, or in development, that could truly replace the Tornado’s unique abilities – carrying 6 tonnes of weapons, at 900mph, at tree top height, in the night, in any weather, comfortable for crew and able to operate from rough airstrips?
Jay
UK
A combination of F-35’s Typhoons and eventually UCAV’s, probably based on the BAE Taranis.
sealordlawrenceSo why if the British army has no budget constraints, has there usually only been a deployment of 8 apache’s in helmand province, an area covering 58,584 square kilometres? where are the other 59? at the same time why does there never seem to be enough transport helo’s? why is the question asked over and over again about a lack of troop carrying transport helicopters in theatre?
You are lying, I never said that the British Army had no budget constraints.
why can’t you get the point that no-one here doubts the apache’s unmatched capability, no one has said that the job it does isn’t vitally important, but why is it that there are the same amount of apaches in british service as chinooks and puma’s combined, when the airlift capability is needed so badly.I never said anyaircraft could better it, but other aircarft could do sveral different tasks.
Because of a poor and constantly lauded procurement process that has finally had some effect undertaken to it through project Julius and procurement of additional Merlins. The Hind woul be a near useless transport helicopter compared to anything currently used for the role by the UK.
And that is why a multi use airframe, that can combine offensive and troop carrying capabilities is better for budget restricted air forces like Brazil, i’m not a hind fan boy, i actually had a A1 sized poster of an apache on my wall when i was younger, but if i was a british soilder in afghanistan, and i got hit and there was only one helicopter on station, i would prefer it to have some cabin space than the ability to smell cats a hundred miles away
Because the only one you have noted would be an aweful transport helo and suffer massively reduced capability compared to the Apache. Your idea is ridiculous and has already been shown to be so.
sealordlawrenceyou know, ur completly right, what was i thinking, why have one moderatly priced asset that can do several jobs, when you can have six expensive types doing it.
Do i know about every sensor and procedure the apache uses? no, did i say otherwise? no. i said for forces with less money, a cheaper multi use asset is gonna be cheaper than buying a bunch of hardcore anti tank helicopters, and that thought encompasses a budget restrained British military
Because the expensive types are far superior.
The British Military is only budget constrained compared to the US, it still has a force of 67 Apaches.
The Apache has proved to be a remerkable assets in Afghanistan, outstanding sensors (both radar and optical) have allowed to fly extremely low altitude routes, undertake very close air support, fly in very close formation with Chinooks without using location lights and engage in hunter-killer mission whilst defending itself with an integrated defensive aids suite.
The you come here, admit that you know nothing about what you are talking about, and avocate that the Hind, with a few upgrades, would have been a better choice than the superb WAH-64D that has won remarkably high praise for its role in Afghanistan. The only issue has been availability and that is to be expected given the conditions under which the aircraft are being operated (hot high and dusty in combat) and would afflict any helicopter including your beloved Hind. The UK is pursuing the right heliopter programme given the Afghanistan commitment by keeping the Apache fleet up to date and undertaking project Julius for the Chinnok fleet.
sealordlawrenceDon’t make the mistake thinking that everyone here is so stupid not to recognize that this is nothing every below average $5mil+ helicopter can not do.
Oh so how many $5mil helicopters carry radars sensitive enough to detect heavy machine guns, whilst carrying integrated defensive aids suites, full range of optonic sensors, heavy warloads and 1st rate comms systems?:rolleyes:
sealordlawrenceYou are absolutely wrong about the sensor issue. The COTS sensor balls are evolving far more quickly than specialized integrated suites like Apache has. Today, every mediocre police or battlefield chopper equipped with a sensor ball and a set of autogated ANVIS goggles has thermal imaging capability comparable and night vision capability superior to an Apache which uses non-standard image intensifiers not yet available in the latest thinfilmed configuration. The only difference is that the sensors on the police chopper are less integrated. But this is again the famous 20-80 rule.. Not everyone wants to pay for that.
Funny, because the intgrated thing is exactly what the British Army wants and has been making use of. And you should check out the M-TADS/PNVS now being installed on the UK fleet and integrated with TEDAC. Modular and highly efficient for supporting low altitude flying.
sealordlawrencethanks niksi, i may struggle to get my point across sometime and i don’t pretend to know everything, so its good to know some people listen!
Do i think the brits will use the hind in afghan-no, do i think its great at everything-no, no i think its a good platform, when limited numbers can be purchased at a limited cost -yes and isn’t that what this discussion is about
i apologise for using afghan helo shortages as an example, but i think its a good point
No ity is a terrible point that demonstrates that you have no idea how complex the UK Apache operations in Afghanistan are.
Do you know what the WAH-64 Apache Mission Planning System is and does?
Do you know what the UK has been using the Longbow radar for In Afghanistan?
Do you know how good the comms system has to be to bring 30mm chain gun fire to within 10 metres of friendly troops?
Do you know what use is being made of the inetgrated self defence system?
Do you know what upgrades are being undertaken on the type in UK service?
You come into this thread with a ridiculous blanket statement supported by zero facts. The notion that a Hind (yeah sure you are going to get eight spec ops guys with 50lbs of kit each in a loaded up Hind and get it to perfrom well in Hot and High:rolleyes:) could ever match the capabilities that the British are using from the WAH-64 in Afghanistan is absurd in extremis.
sealordlawrencei am not in contact with the guy at present, but i am pretty sure air op’s in afghanistan are jointly operated and they don’t all sulk in different rooms, therefore regarding helicopters different services can rate the overall capability.
I never said they did,dont put words in peoples mouths.:mad:
Lessor sensors can be uprated, but as discussed in the kiowa replacemnt thread, there is a lot of overkill in apaches, i think the hind carries 6/8 troops inside(i think u know that anyhow) say 4 fully equipped uk soilders, from what i have seen and heard i should think that is an average amount carried. And if only there was a situation in the late 70’s/80’s where the hinds ability to operate in afghanistan was tested
I suggest you check out the latest Apache capabilities, and how exactly is their overkill? You tried spotting a guy who does not want to be found in vegitated terrian lately? Or putting holes in Mud compounds, harder than you might think.
My point was, that the hind is more useful for lessor cost for most operators, how surprising rearadmiral awrence decided to jump at me for it
Sure it is if you have no knowledge of the systems capabilities involved.
sealordlawrenceLet’s not forget the CVF’s are Super Carriers in everthing but name. Being about the size of the Midway Class and nearly as big as a Nimitz Class. What’s the flight deck 4 vs 4.5 acres…………
As for Ship Building the US ain’t so bad………Especially, when put into context. Like when you compare them to other navy’s. They do very well……and hey let’s not pick on Lake Michigan. I grew up in the fair state and worked half a mile from the Lake Michigan Shore Line for a few years……TALK ABOUT COLD!;)
I dont have a problem with lake Michigan, I have a problem with using it to construct ocean going warships.;)
No the US is not that bad, but US Navy shipbuilding planning and consequently US naval design has been mis-managed for 20 years and the consequence is the continuation of the Burke run.
Now compare the Arleigh Burke’s to what is coming out of European Yards:
Type-45, an exceptional design, IEP, Sampson, stealthy hull and topside form etc
RNLN Sentinel, Thales I-Mast is all that needs to be said, a masterpiece of engineering and quite possibly the best frigate (by which I mean 2-4000 ton ship) sensor suite yet developed, compare that to LCS.
sealordlawrenceI dont have a problem with this.. how ever even you can see how such capability will shift balance of MAD, hence you can expect an answer from Russian or China.
Now what i do have problem with is when west starts jumping up and down and using such words as “new cold war” and “back to soviet days”, when Russia and China do answer the legitimate threat they see.. like they way everybody got worked up about Iskanders at Kalingrad.. which was a hardly anything worth getting worked up about.
Absolute nonsense, Russia will still have far more warheads than the US has KKV’s, the US interceptors will still be poorly located to intercept missiles coming out of Russia. There is no threat to Russia and MAD.
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