dionisObviously you are Barking up the wrong tree , there is no infinite funds available for Russian Navy ( the recession just made it worse for most countries ) , and there are many new projects that the Navy has to fund and exisiting systems that needs to be modernised and maintained.
The funds are not infinite, but the re-armament budget has already paid for a hell of a lot of ships and other equipment. The funds are steady now, and you can bet your ass that if the Russians really needed to accelerate military construction, they could.
If Russian Navy has to maintain an assymetric response to NATO/US challenges and keep the credibility of its deterrence , it has to put the money where the mouth is which mean funding strategic SSBN , upgrading the existing one , funding the redevelopment of surface fleet program and maintaining and modernising it , funding for personal training and well being of its personal , new Weapons development , ambition to have new aircraft carrier , modernise the SSN/SSGN fleet and finally building a fleet of new SSN fleet.
SSBN is a general deterrent
An easy way to deter NATO is loading up the cruise missiles and torpedoes of existing ships / subs with nuclear warheads.
Otherwise, NATO isn’t going to mess with Russia, even today. Not nuclear, not conventionally.
As per reports the new SSGN Yasen will only come up in number by 2018 when a fleet of 6 SSGN Yasen is available if all things go well and resources are available.
I do not recall the specific fund allocation for the Yasen, but I think the overall goal is 8 Yasen by 2020. That’s more firepower than 16 Virginia subs.
The first of Lada project will be commisioned next year and only 3 to best case 4 will be available , most likely the russian will be funding a good portion of money in modernising its existing Kilo fleet.
Uhh, 2007 – 2015 re-armament program has allotted funds for 6 Ladas (through to 2015, clearly).
If you are comparing capabilities of a 4th Gen SSK Lada with a 4th Gen SSN ( like Virginia ) in broad spectrum then obviously any 4th Gen SSN will far out match capabilities of any SSK , there is hardly any comparison.
Broad spectrum meaning what? Sailing around the world without any issues? Sure, nuclear wins. For other purposes, it’s up to the on-board equipment. What one Lada lacks, three make up for – (firepower comes to mind here).
dionisObviously you missed my point.
Russia has been slow in developing its SSN fleet of 4th Gen type , obviously there is no infinite amount of fund as in Cold War days and they can spend their amount wisely in developing a 4th gen SSBN program.
I didn’t see any real point, so there was nothing to miss.
And the funds are plentiful since circa 2002, but the 90s were painful. The other real issue is shipyard space. Can’t blame you for not following Russian economic newspapers though (real ones, not the online BS).
Each of the Yasen costs more than $ 1 Billion and due to so many conflicting demands and dire needs in other areas RuN has been very slow in funding SSGN.
Considering the Navy eats $22 – $25 billion dollars of the budget, I don’t see any problem funding even 1 Yasen / year if there was a NEED FOR IT.
It would be about a decade ~ 2020 when Yasen and Advanced Yasen makes in small number ( 6 – 8 ) where they can act as a small credible force.
Erm yes, that’s right. You were expecting 25 of them? For the fabled US invasion that’s next year?
The least they can do right now to maintain an asymetric response to the every rising US 4th Gen SSN/GN fleet , is to backport the technologies developed for Yasen and Boeri into Akula and Oscar 2 when they go for deep modernisation next year onwards.
This asymmetric response is for that invasion right? The US isn’t really producing THAT many new subs as you are making them out to be. The rate comes out to be about 1 / year at the most. And that’s a desperate chase if they want to replace the LA class subs, which, really, is not necessary.
As far as Lada goes , obviously they are different class of sub and USN do not have any presence or capability in that domain.
Lada compete with western 4th Gen SSK and as far as production run goes they do not plan to get more than 3 -4 lada before 2015
Lada competes with any SSN or other submarine if they want. Russia isn’t invading South America. The Lada around Russian territorial water is as good as any SSN, if not better.
dionisThey still have a long way to go , before they start series production of 4th Gen SSN , probably will take a decade from now to get the 4th Gen SSN in small Numbers.
The USN is far ahead in the race and have produced 2 new 4th Gen SSN , Sea Wolf and the series production Virginia and are churning the latter in numbers.
The Russians are playing a catch up game here.
Oh geez, that must make them feel really bad. After all, the US invades next year I heard. :rolleyes: Other than that, thanks for the information captain Obvious. Considering Lada is a 4th gen submarine in its own right, they aren’t far behind at all for any practical applications.
dionisThe crew of the nuclear submarine Severodvinsk “arrived at the place of service
According to the press service of the Administration of the city of Severodvinsk (Arkhangelsk region), the crew of nuclear submarine Severodvinsk “was formed on the basis of 11 divisions of Northern Fleet submarines in 2005, then was trained in 270 training unit of the Navy in Sosnovy Bor. In October seamen came from the Arctic in Severodvinsk.
The commander of submarine Severodvinsk “Captain 1 rank Sergey Mityaev already paid a friendly visit to the mayor’s office, discussed with the head of the city Michael Gmyrinym prospects of cooperation. In the near future administration of Severodvinsk will sign a contract with the crew of mentoring.
Families sailors will live in the city of shipbuilders until the completion of testing of the ship. As previously reported in the press the Vice Chief of Naval Staff Vice-Admiral Oleg Burtsev, attack nuclear submarine Severodvinsk “will go into the Navy fleet of Russia in 2011.
– Our city deserves that his name was named the most modern ship of the Navy of Russia, – said the mayor of Severodvinsk Michael Gmyrin.
Indeed, the headache attack submarine of the fourth generation Project 885 (the code “Ash”) today is unique not only in Russia but also in the world. A ship designed by a team of Maritime Engineering Bureau “Malachite” (St. Petersburg), founded in Sevmashpredpriyatie in 1993. The long period of construction was due not only to economic difficulties in the country, but also fundamentally new architecture, housing and weapons dismantlement.
The magazine “Popular Mechanics”, displacement of the ship is estimated at different sources from 8600 to 9500 tons, length of about 120 m. “Severodvinsk” is a powerful set of weapons, including supersonic cruise missiles, “Onyx”. The ship also received the latest communication and navigation systems, equipped with a fundamentally new nuclear power plant and water cannon instead of screws. All these innovations will make “Severodvinsk” very low-noise nuclear submarine in the world.
In July 2009, the slip way shop of OAO “PO” Sevmash “laid the second nuclear submarine project 885, which received the name of” Kazan “.
http://www.klubsmi.ru/sudostoy/item/240-2009-10-20-10-21-28.html (Russian, above is from a quick Google translate)
The Seawolf killer’s deployment approaches 😉
dionisIMV subsonic missiles are no match for modern point defense, unless you mean a supersonic variant, they are of little value.
Yes, I certainly hope the supersonic variant will be used!
dionisI hope it flies soon and appears to be the best thing since sliced bread. Maybe then a few politicians would pull their heads out and buy more F-22s. 😡
Since no tech info will be released, it will all be put off as speculation and the F-22 will remain dead.
dionisNo, yes and no.
She is out on complex trials again judging by the years of induction of serial boats they expect trials for at least couple of years more, because Kronshtadt can be launched already next year (judging from how complete the hull is on photos).
No VLS on series Lada boats is a huge minus. Major loss of firepower.
Tube launched Klub in small numbers is nothing to brag about.
dionisIs Lada going to be fitted with VLS? Or only tube-launched cruise missiles? And if so, can it fire Yakhont?
dionisAl-41 was supposed to be the 5th gen engine designation for the PAK-FA 40,000lbs engine no?
dionisWatch a Russian one then, in those the Russians always win. 😉
The interesting thing is, however, that the Russian ones typically give a fairly well rounded overview of the opposition, and why in certain aspects Russian gear is better, and where it needs to catch up.
Not like the US-blast-away-everything BS from Discovery or History.
dionis
PAK-FA FIRST FLIGHT!!!!
😀
dionisI saw this ages ago. Notice the trend in the Video (American stuff always wins, Even when the Russians have Fifth gen and Space based fighters). The whole dofights series is biased to the core only showing Air to Air victories of American/Israeli Aces while totally neglecting the other side.
They could learn a bit from Discovery actually because many of their documentaries about fighters and dog-fights are even handed and they often feature aces from the enemy camp.
Uhhh, no. Discovery fails just about as badly. If it’s American, it’s automatically the best. Period. Just the way you like it.
dionisThats good you are interested in truth – straight up. I’m not sure what you expect to find by saying that there would be far more evidence – evidence of what type do you think is missing?. I dont claim to have classified knowledge – never have done and wouldn’t say so anyway. I have some knowledge from the perspective of a trained weapons engineer who lived in very close proximity with the operators of the weapons he fixed. That gives me a perspective on the ludicrous claims for over-the-horizon missile shots made, from both east and west, in the media and by small boys on the internet.
You have the perspective of the Royal Navy capabilities. I’m afraid I didn’t know they have any “real” OTH capability 😉 Sorry.
The date that the satellite ceased orbital correction is sourced from NASA and the cease-function was from a Russian aersopace source. The Kirov’s and Oscars being slated for repair complete the circularity of your argument – there MUST be a Legenda equivalent because there is resource being spent on the P-700 shooters and there MUST be value in the P-700 because they are still trying to get space-based targetting working. Its a self-reinforcing fantasy.
Self reinforcing fantasy beats “idiot Russian Navy” theory repairing worthless ships theory. Sorry.
Next theory?
The simplest fact, Dionis, is that P-700 was developed as a way to fill Soviet Atlantic sea denial doctrine. That doctrine is well documented to use powerful surface forces to support the prime striking element of the Northern Fleet – the SSN’s. P-700, targetted off Legenda, had to deliver a nuclear warhead within a couple of thousand yards of a CV or try and hit a lesser defended target set (CVH ASW group/SAG etc) with conventional warheads in a 1980’s threat scenario.
Prove to me that Legenda is central to effective P-700 use from a credible, Russian source, and I will believe you. The missile is highly secretive, so it’s a rhetorical demand. I mean hell, when did images surface? 2003?
Now maybe P-700 has been uprated with armour and EW, fine I accept that, but it is still a Cold War system and it is still tied to the element it is sorely missing….Legenda. That being the case, bringing this round to the point about the big ships and subs carrying it, the raison d’etre for Kirov and the Oscars is gone, there are no more ASW hunter groups in the North Atlantic and no SIOP-tasked carriers prowling the Barents, and the enabling technology for the employment of both ships main battery is gone. You tell me what value there is in keeping them?.
Keeping them allows the Russian Navy to retain an extremely powerful anti-shipping presence on demand to protect economic interests that are contested.
You ask:
I give you, in answer, your own words. They are refitting the Oscars and the Kirovs. For that spend to have any return whatsoever they absolutely HAVE to get something in place to replace Legenda. For my money the satellites are a fools game and were demonstrably proven so when the USN decided to pot a satellite with an SM-3 – if thats not saying ‘forget using satellites to target our ships’ I dont know what is!.
LOL? Are you serious? Now the US can selectively choose which satellite to shoot down out of thousands? This is a joke, right?
Dont hate them. They kept me employed in a job I loved and, ok, they got me made redundant when they decided to throw their hand in, but, I do quite well in civvy street with what I learned because of them.
So essentially, you dodged the stupid comment about how “their missiles failed” – since you didn’t have a single example.
Missed a nought. 1200yds not 1200. 30knts i.e 30 nautical miles per hour divided by 12 minutes = 6 nautical or about 12,000yds.
So approx 11KM? An 11KM difference in position isn’t going to make the Granit hit the ocean instead of its target.
Relative fix from a trawler will be dependent on how good its navigation is and how accurate its radar – is conceivable you could be adding miles to the targetting error on seeker activation. Marpat has to get close enough to identify a target and survive long enough to link back. AWACS is rarely going to be staged out a long way overwater as they tend to be high value systems themselves.
AWACS or MARPAT may be used, no matter how high value the asset is if its going after something like a CBG.
The MARPAT has to get close enough (approx 400KM?) for a TU-142, perhaps, and survive long enough is what? 1 Minute? 30 seconds? It’s on a mission, it’s not going to sit around and wait to transmit targeting data.
I wouldn’t argue that with you – I dont think Harpoon is an especially good weapon either!. 😉
Ah geez. You should write the Russian and US Navies then and convince them to dump all of their ARH weapons.
dionisLOL. . . . 😀
dionisIs it? A third of the cost for an over manned ship that will not last as long as a new vessel…good money being thrown after bad if you ask me.
I didn’t know there was a shortage of manpower in the Russian Navy. Last I heard, they needed places for officers to actually do something. LOL.
So yes, the Kirovs are splendid task force leaders. Again.
Starter for ten….
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/project410.htmlsome follow up….
http://all.net/CID/Attack/papers/ElectronicInterference2.htmland from the Falklands experience….
http://www.e-goat.co.uk/forums/archive/index.php/t-1247.htmland from your own backyard….
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/556256/postsSuggest you keep up with how modern weapon work before telling me STFU….:cool:
You are speculating out of your rear end here. These petty examples have nothing specific to do with fending off a nuclear cruise missile attack.
If Russia was actually a threat and not just thumping its chest so Putin can feel a few inches taller the RAf would probably be bothered but I am sure I read our military was off fighting wars somewhere else….
No, they were sleeping, and BBC was really wetting themselves over it.
You can keep watering a turd but the sun usually dries it up in the end.
Why spend the refit money and then the running and manning costs on such old vessels, seems such a waste. Though it might give the dockyard workers something to do while Russia’s future Navy is built in Saint-Nazaire.
Again, the old vessel – needs to be upgraded! The systems potential on a Kirov is just endless!
Really?
Yes, you keep stating that the Kirovs are out of date, yet you do not want to upgrade them. Ironically, that’s erm, what you are supposed to be doing. 😀
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