dionisThe Russian AF might call them that. At the moment the only designations they have are Su-35 and Su-27BM… the former from the Sukhoi design bureau… quite frankly a bureau with a long history of changing designations for minor changes (ie Su-9 => Su-11, Su-15 => Su-21, Su-17 => Su-20 and Su-22) and the latter was the Russian AF designation.
Personally I think with the fairly substantial upgrade of the Foxhound making it the Mig-31BM upgrade and the minor upgrades of the Su-27 and Su-25 both called SM, that it would be consistent if a deeper more expensive upgrade of the Su-27 and the Su-25 that a BM designation would be more appropriate, though in the case of the Su-25 the TM upgrade seems to be the accepted designation for the more expensive upgrade.
The Su-25T/TM is also the Su-39, but can be an “upgrade” or a totally new jet I think. Here though, the T specifically stands for “Tankovii” for anti-tank specialization.
BM = Bolshaya Modernizatsiya (Big Modernization) acronym is bilingual here! Applies to the Su-35 they are testing now I think?
SM = Seriynaya Modernizatsiya (Serial Modernization) this one works 2 way also.
This might clear things up for those interested.
A rear facing radar is total crap and waste of weight, except maybe for a bomber.
More appropriate is to look on how I can feed my fighters with information without them needing to give away their position or presence at all.
You better call Sukhoi and tell them that, I mean, what do they know anyway?:rolleyes:
dionisOops, you mean SS-18 Satan. 😉
I’m pretty sure the SS-19 is a little over 100T, the SS-18 is more like 200T.
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To clarify, I’m not sure what he confused – the weight of the missile of the payload or both.
SS-18 is 210T, 10x MIRV with 550 – 750kT load, or 1x 20mT warhead
SS-19 is 105T with 1x 550kT or 6x 550kT.
dionisLight equipment damage?. Have you the slightest concept of what you are talking about?.
I can see how you might consider a shock induced fracture to a pipe weld trivial. How about if the pipe in question is in the primary coolant loop of the reactor?. A shock-induced dry joint fail on a PCB might be considered ‘light damage’ – unless perhaps its part of the special weapons fire control!.
I promise you that your ‘light equipment damage’ in either of those circumstances would be extremely relevent to the continuation of the platform as a ‘deterrent’ weapons system. In the first case, without K219 levels of heroics, you could be looking at a dead crew and a lost boat.
You might be quite satisfied that the Russian designers of the vessel have somehow certified the boat to be able to crash through 3m of ice because it says so in a book somewhere. I’ll say this to you though, and it will be the last thing I want to hear about it until you manage it – go and ask a submariner if he’d want to take his boat through 3m of ice without an onboard emergency forcing it. Then come back and share the answer with the forum.
And I can tell you, that a launch of as many missiles on Doomsday is more important than anything you will ever be able to convince anyone here of. If the Typhoon is launching its missiles, it probably means that the USSR just got nuked, by the US, in which case, the sub really does become worthless – since it’s probably being tracked by US SSNs at that point, or they are close, and an immediate firing is the only thing that counts then – the whole MAD thing – you know?
It’s a SSBN for crying it out, its meant to use its payload no matter what.
Do you have any “concept” of what you are talking about? :rolleyes:
dionisGarry I’m pretty sure I saw news that the MiG-31BM proposed “serial” upgrade jets (2 of them) – went to one of the test centers for final approval to start upgrading the MiG-31s in service right now.
dionishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_D-5
8 MIRVS, upto 475kT
dionisHe said it is close competitor based on consensus of Sukhoi specialist not equal like F-22/MIG-31
I’m not sure what you’re saying – he said the Su-35BM can “tackle” a Su-35BM I think (I’ll have to re-read the interview from the PAK-FA thread) – but the MiG-31?? What relevance is that?
All I know is he said the Su-35BM basically put the Europeans planes far behind.
dionisSens everything have it practical limits, i doubt the RCS diference between the EF/Rafale/Su-35 is significant in aerial combat, especially when you consider there arent AAM with a range of 400 kms…
Agree the ECM/low RCS is a good combo, but really there is no way to solve that, only with more powerfull radars (as Irbis) and that goes for everybody, passive killing systems don’t work (well… IR does)
Dionis about radar seeker missiles, i dont see where is the big trouble, just shut down your radar for a while, or move your antenna (if you can)
No AAMs with 400KM range? KS-172 much?
I think the test pilot of the Su-35BM did state that only Super Hornet can be compared to the Su-35BM, and I bet that’s mostly because of the US weapons package. All of the Europeans fighters are behind he said.
dionisReally? :p Even the seeker-heads of the given AAMs are limited, when that AAMs are out of steam in the “end-game”. Simply not good enough against agile targets. :diablo:
You do not aspect, that the Irbis has the full range against semi-stealth eurocanards, which do reduce the ability of that further by smart jamming and and anti-lock positioning. An ultra-powerful radar is itself an excellent light-house to give ample time of warning and do ask for a homing AAM. 😮
Every coin has two sides, when advertisement does highlight the sunny side for obvious reason and be tight-lipped about the related shadow side. 😉
Going after something like cruise-missile is in need of ultra-powerful radars, which can generate just enough range against that in look-down-shot-down mode, when not too fast. Here it does not matter much, because such robots do not fire back. 😉
Except that if the Su-35BM lights up first and also detects first – as it would – the EF can either die (because even those ultra long range missiles can engage fighters – you just have to shoot it at a range that’s obviously less than 399KM, say, 300?) – or it could run and probably fail what it was sent to do. A lose-lose situation for the EF.
With the multiple jamming systems (internal/external) on the Su-35BM, a lock for the EF would probably mean it’s also close enough to get mowed down with R-77M/PDs.
dionisNo, that is the kind of ‘Super Flanker’ the eurocanards were designed for. Just over a decade late by the fate of the SU and Russia.
Until the Russians designed missiles like the R-37M and KS-172.
Coupled with the ultra-powerful radar like NIIP’s Irbis and the typically powerful Russian jamming, I doubt the the EF is going to have a very good chance against a Su-35BM.
dionisGuys, it appears that this thread seems to have two groups here.
Those of us living in the real world, and the small but vocal group inhabiting a parallel universe where the Gorshkov deal was a good one, negotiated in good faith and subject to innocent mistakes that led to a small price increase, but which will deliver a wonderful ship, the pride of Russian engineering and which will form the centrepiece of the Indian Navy for decades to come, confounding all the critics.
Lets leave Dionis, RPG, Star49 and the rest of the delusional mob who told us what a great deal this was back when it was announced (most of whom apparently don’t post here any more, I wonder why?) to their fantasies, and we can discuss the matter somewhere else in a more rational, sane and non-delusional manner.
That lot don’t want to admit the deals faults, in their world “everything is fine, get that pesky reality out of our happy, happy world”.
Unicorn
Let me be honest, if I had to choose to be on the Russian’s side of this deal, or the “right” side – Indian – whatever, I’d choose the Russian side.
If you can’t play the game – don’t.
dionisExperience….seen equipment thats come back from a sub that has suffered a big shock event. Had to fix it.
Heavy shock events, like nearby explosions or slamming a 6000ton hull into a few million tons of ice, generates a ‘shock load’ on everything in the hull from pipe welds and periscope seals to the sonar array and even the torpedoes. Take a hammer to the side of your pc case if you dont believe me. The lesson might be salutory for you.
The simple fact is that surfacing through 3m of ice is not something to be undertaken lightly and no sane commander would subject his boat to such an event if avoidable in any way. Hence my earlier comment that the capability is more academic than a real-world operational advantage.
Hammers, PC cases, and equipment that do not belong to the Typhoon are somewhat trivial to this argument. If the sub was designed to be able to perform certain maneuvers that are difficult – it would have been designed to be able to withstand them, not to mention, light equipment damage is irrelevant when you need to surface and fire off a salvo of SLBMs. This is the entire point of this submarine – deterrence. Not a hard concept I’d think.
dionisYou guys might want to stick on topic and compare the Su-35BM to the other 4+ gen Euro fighters, since both the F-35 and F-22 are 5th generation and more comparable to the PAK-FA, although I feel that the Su-35BM can be a more useful jet than the F-35 for a variety of reasons – mostly due to size.
dionisWhat I find ironic now is there are many in the Russian navy who wouldn’t mind taking Gorshkov now as a second carrier.
A ready hull is better than none, too bad they couldn’t keep the SS-N-12 launchers though, those were beastly.
dionisGrow up man. This is the adult world – if you wish to indulge in name calling I’m sure there is a forum for that kind of thing – perhaps a kindergarten.
Your ‘deal’ as you have it, bargain of the century, is as it stands today worthless. The yard hasn’t the resources to do the job it was contracted to do and has received payment for. Thats not a bargain its next door to fraud. That is not Russophobia thats plain and simple shoddy behaviour by the Russian yard being called for what it is. I’d call it the same if it were a British yard doing the same thing….in fact I have said as much regarding the Astute build with BAE.
Poor turn of phrase. Gorshkov was advertised, by the Russians, precisely as being given away free. The cost of its refit was the only money changing hands and it was a laughable amount when the contract was signed – especially when it became known the extent of the refit!. You cant get around the basic facts on this one Dionis its been done to death.
Precise translation from a non-Russian speaker? Hahaha! 😀
Show me what the Russians said to the Indians – in original form, and I’ll get back to you, otherwise, don’t bother.
Take a look at yourself with the “name calling” – if that’s what I did, then you are in the same boat, and that’s definitely the kindergarten boat (“me and my little friends / you and your Russophobes”) – because I’d much rather tell you off in a less civilized manner, to be honest. Not only are you more biased than FOX news, you are also a hypocrite. :rolleyes:
dionisRCS is not necessarily dependent on size. Were that to be true, a MiG-21 would have a smaller RCS than a B-2A! Any head-on RCS reduction measures on the Su-34 are, however, completely worthless if they did nothing to treat the intake trunks and mask the compressor faces from radar.
I’m sure the Russians are well aware of what kind of RCS reduction measures they could undertake 😛
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