dionisThe upgrades certainly do matter! What a childish statement!:eek:
What good is an upgrade to a Slava cruiser if its weapons systems are capable to be fired at max range, etc. . . You’d need a complete overhaul of the ship then with new radars, new missiles, etc to truly improve performance, and the Slava lacks in none of those departments. A naval S-300 and SS-N-12 arsenal is formidable even today, not even counting the smaller stuff.
And I’d much rather have SS-N-12s on my ship than any damn Harpoon garbage. :rolleyes:
The sheer warhead + speed of the weapon make it insane.
Maybe comparable to the Kh-22 (950kg vs 1000kg warheads and trajectory/speed differences), which the Russians claim punches a hole 5 meters wide and 12 meters deep into a hull. Now that is SERIOUS damage.
dionisThe AS-13 and its longer range big brother the AS-18 are similar to SLAM.
They don’t have the sats because they dont currently need them. If tensions rise… ie the US installs missiles in Poland and starts deploying forces in the baltic states then you would see lots of satellites being launched from every available platform.
Yeah Garry, AFAIK the SLAM does have a link/TV or IR imaging system too doesn’t it?
I’d also think there’s a big difference between no threat and an escalating threat. I’m sure the Russians can quickly muster more than meets the eye in they felt a threat was imminent.
Doesn’t matter. Sounds like what he’s proposing is using a Su-24 playing the role of sitting duck to guide the Kh-101 launched from far away in. Why anybody would want to do that even if were possible is beyond me. Just stick a shorter range missile on the Su-24 and avoid the middle man and save your own butt at the same time.
No sferrin, why would the Su-24 be the target designator? I’m using that to describe how the Kh-101 TV system likely works. The Kh-101 firing platforms (Tu-160/Tu-95) would have a similar guidance system to the Su-24M/Su-34 for the Kh-59M, except obviously newer to use the Kh-101 in TERCOM/TV mode. The question is, how far can the data link between the missile and bomber work – something I doubt anyone knows other than the Russian air force pilots / officials.
It would just add to the mess of things in case they needed to attack an overwhelming sea force like USN carrier groups to supplement the other plethora of anti-ship weapons, except that the Kh-101 can be fired for very far away.
dionisYou had better have some sources for this, becouse this the first I have seen of true TV guidance for the Kh-101.
The Kh-59 example has everything to do with this issue as does the Kh-65S example that you have repeatedly ignored. the fact is that every Russian cruise missile with an AShM capability has a dedicated variant with an active radar seeker.
Now stop inventing unevidenced theories and go away.
The FAS link was posted before, you gotta open your eyes a little wider since you repeatedly miss sources. Go look at it. It states “TV Seeker + TERCOM”
Likely why the missile can “deliver a small gift into a window” as some Russian official said – ie, extremely high accuracy.
Exceptionally good point. This is why I keep asking about the operational readiness of the Russian navy, training days per year, days spent at sea, even just proficiency training ashore. There has to be very real doubts about the proficiency of Russian sailors compared to their US counterparts. Dionis obviously will not accept this but he is the same guy who invents weapons systems and claims that the fact that the vast majority of Russian warships have not been upgraded in 20 years does not matter.
If an Iraqi or Taliban guerilla can kill a US Green Beret, their odds are even worse against a decently trained and especially armed force.
I hate to say it, but you know, when was the last time the US fought a properly armed force? World War 2?
In terms of readiness, the navy might be slightly worse off than the air force, but if you could understand Russian you’d like a youtube video about Russian bombers on exercise recently. It claimed that the young pilots of the squadrons completed the exercise with near 100% efficiency. Pretty good for the “badly trained” Russian forces if you ask me. I’m pretty sure the Navy wouldn’t be far behind at all, and recently, the Slava cruiser on exercise seemed to be hitting stuff really well with its SS-N-12s.
dionisAnd how do these images get to the Su-24?
Missile to targeting pod / system link, the specifics of the system aren’t available anywhere AFAIK.
dionisThe upgrades are irrelevant as long as the systems are maintained.
The 80s era SAMs, and ASMs are well capable of putting up a fight against the ships of other navies with the right tactics.
And either way, all this is more small time security than deterrent, at least for another 10 years while the Navy modernizes.
As long as Russia has its prime nuclear arsenal of ICBMs, no one is going to set foot on Russian soil uninvited.
. . . and potentially a newly built IRBM force (like the older SS-20) which in the past could have annihilated Europe in what – 23 minutes – since the US is now pretty much pushing themselves into Eastern Europe with their missile defense system.
dionisThe Ukraina being sold to China or India is one of those storys that comes up fairly regularly, rather like the China building 3 aircraft carriers tale. The fact is that there is no evidence of either country trying to buy the ship. If she was going to be completed I would have thought that the Russian Navy would be the most likely customer.
They’d paid for it in gas relief as usual :dev2:
dionisPeople often give the arsenal ship as an example of this but it would probably have never been built and was really a different concept. Without the development of a Soviet style heavy AShM doctrine the USN would likely have never built anything like a Kirov. The distributed and highly capable nature of Aegis really does not require a large ship.
There are currently suggestions for a 25,000ton ABM cruiser equipped with KEI but personally I can not see it ever getting built. It will be interesting to see if in the next few years any of the surviving Kirov’s get a ‘real’ upgrade. It would be awesome to see them with an S-400F type system, 96 400km ATBM capable missiles with a decent fire control system would make for a remarkable fleet AD asset. Considering that the Granits were designed and built in the late 70s/80s there must be some considerable room to improve the flight control, navigation, and homing systems.
I don’t think the Russians would want an ABM system on ships, but an S-400 naval version like that of Pyotr Velikiy would be very good, likely with a mix of different missiles.
Wasn’t there some rumor about a suggest and maybe implemented upgrade on the existing Shipwrecks on either ship or subs or both?
Or something about the P-1000 Vulkan?
dionisCurrently the best fighters are Western, if we are totally and obsolutedly honest, Russia has only prototypes and only a fighter that is more or less in the 5 best fighters.
The F-22 is the best fighter now, followed by the Eurofighter, Rafale, JAS-39 and later we can either include the MiG-31, or the Su-30MKI, the Su-35BM and MiG-29OVT are still a prototype form and the MiG-31 is in process of upgrading so probably the Su-30MKI is the best operational russian aircraft.
Now if we include possible aircraft that might influence history as the MiG-21 did well i would say the J-10
An official in the Russian armed forces .. (RuAF) I think said that the upgraded Russian Su-27s would still be the top performing Su-27/30 platform flying.
Someone should have an article with this being said somewhere. I’ll see if I can find it.
Got it:
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2004
INTERNATIONAL DEFENSE REVIEW – FEBRUARY 01, 2004
——————————————————————————–
First upgraded Flankers have entered service
Piotr Butowski
The first five mid-life upgraded Sukhoi Su-27SM fighters have been ceremonially delivered to the 4th CBPiPLS (combat training centre of the Russian Air Force) in Lipetsk. According to General Aleksandr Zelin, Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Air Force, the upgraded aircraft have “become multirole fighters equipped with new weapons and capable of performing new tasks”. As far as combat potential is concerned, Su-27SM is claimed to be superior to the Su-30MKK and Su-30MKI export models, which are based on the same airframe. “We do not need in our service any aircraft that are less capable than those exported by us,” Gen Zelin said.
dionisExplain the steps necessary to do that. :diablo:
On the Su-24M the targeting system (usually an additional pod) transmits images from the seeker of the missile to the target designator on the firing aircraft, which then chooses a target for lock on.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/as-13.htm
On a more sophisticated scale, this would mean the TV seeker would be used to lock on to a huge vessel like a cruiser or carrier, once they are in range of the TV seeker.
:dev2:
dionisYou do not have a single source to suggest AShM capability just your own pointless attempts to save your already dead credibility. Tell us how a missile guided by TERCOM/DSMAC is going to engage an aircraft carrier at sea, something that you have yet to explain. Until you can provide any evidence this is just one of your fantasy weapons.
And before you yet again talk about the Kh-59 I should just point out something that you should know, (but you do not know anything about Russian missile systems as you have shown so many times) that the Kh-59MK as sold to China as an AShM uses an active radar seeker.
You must be 10 years old…
The Kh-101 has a TV seeker added on to the TERCOM/DSMAC. It’s probably the most sophisticated cruise missile / guidance system that’s currently in active military deployment.
The Kh-59 point has nothing to do with dedicated antiship capability – you are making up total crap. I was using it as a reference for how TV seekers actually work – something you clearly don’t know much about, and something that was explained 20 times over by me in terms of how the system works aboard an Su-24.
No one claimed this is a sure thing, but it’s a possibility. But hey, as usual, your armchair opinion doesn’t get beat by anything since you’re the supreme commander of the Russian armed forces… :rolleyes:
dionisSomeone in the Russian armed forces did say the Su-27SM should be more capable than all export models, including the Su-30MKI :confused:
However.. on topic
Today:
1. F-22
2. Su-27SM
3. Su-30MKI
4. Typhoon
5. Mig-29M/M2
5 – 10 years:
1. PAK-FA
2. F-22
3. F-35??
4. Su-27/30/Rafale
5. Typhoon
dionisNo that says that it has a TV/IIR imager for final phase scene matching, not that it has an AShM capability. Now stop posting and go away.
It doesn’t need to say in red print that is have anti-ship capability.
You just have to get the seeker to lock the cam onto the carrier or other large vessel. What’s so insanely unbelievable about this? It might not be the most straightforward method of targeting, but who says it’s impossible?
The upgraded A-50 aircraft can detect targets at 600KM away – another practical method for tracking the US navy.
Not sure how that compares to the Tu-142 and Ka-27 recon abilities.
The thing is, it’s not the entire ocean we are talking about in any case. If there was an attack to be had, it would be obviously targeted to Russian territory or something in the South East. Things like this don’t happen randomly. The Russians would have a pretty good idea of where to start looking, so, it’s not really “the whole ocean” that they would have to search, rather only where they expect the US carriers to be in some conflict.
dionisI’m fairly sure the Kh-101 uses TERCOM and DSMAC which means land attack only.
From what I’ve read it’s got a multiple mode guidance system. Let me see if I can find the info about the TV guidance.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/kh-101-specs.htm
“TERCOM + TV Seeker”
It can’t be any worse than the older Kh-59M seeker. :confused:
dionisThe MiG-31M was an 80’s/90’s program to refine the MiG-31 with various airframe changes, new avionics, and the addition of six conformal stations for the new R-37 AAM. This is NOT the same aircraft as the current MiG-31BM upgrade. The MiG-31M was one of the post-Cold War programs that didn’t survive into the 21st Century. It never reached service, and only a handful of prototypes were built.
Also, the MiG-31BM will have an upgraded Zaslon radar set, but it isn’t being replaced completely with the MiG-31M’s Zaslon-M set as far as I am aware.
Have a look at the wikipedia source I posted. It claims that “Most of MiG-31 aircraft in Russian service are being or have been upgraded to the MiG-31M standard”
I think in the variants section.
The most advanced in service Soviet model was the MiG-31BS I think, so I’m guessing the Russians must have done the MiG-31M work themselves.
I made no reference to the MiG-31BM being in full service, though I think a handful have been made/upgraded.
dionisDude, provide a single shred of evidence……thats all I ask, some vague reference would do it. However you can not so you are ridiculous.:rolleyes:
I kindly ask you to do the same.
Do you even have any clue as to how a Kh-59M/Su-24M guidance system works? Start there, then use your wild imagination on how that could be improved on the Tu-160 and Kh-101. How’s that for “vague reference” – now go google a bit.
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