viscountMike, certainly not just my idea. For a more detailed description of the design thinking, have a look at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Australia_DHA-3_Drover
Also the DH Dove design connection is mentioned on several Australian sites if you Google ‘DHA-3 Drover’.
viscountBit of background airframe history.
Built 1952 at Bankstown, Australia as a de Havilland of Australia DHA-3 Drover 1, with construction number 5014. The Drover was an 8-seat ‘bush’ airliner, powered by 3 x DH Gipsy Major 10 Mk.2. Essentially a very-much modified Dove in concept and design. Production numbered only 20 aircraft.
Over the years quoted as initially registered VH-EAZ then VH-EAS, vice versa, or more frequently just as solely VH-EAS, with the Internet and access to historical research post by eminent Australian researchers, the correct tale can be presented:
Initially registered VH-EAZ 30.7.52, and was delivered to QANTAS (also quoted as in July 1952). Was equipped as a Mk.1F and later upgraded to a Mk.2 by 1954. The Drover became VH-EAS, with a re-registration date of 18.8.54 (or 5.5.58 depending on info source), although still in service with Qantas.
Photo of VH-EAZ of Qantas as a Drover http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac1/austcl/QantasFleet/VH-EAZ(2).html
Purchased by Air Navigation and Trading Ltd of Blackpool, UK, in December 1960 and registered G-APXX. Arrived at Liverpool Docks on September 19th 1961 and was delivered by road to Squires Gate Airport. Never assembled and lay dismantled, mostly in outdoor storage beside the AN&T hangar at Blackpool for a number of years.
Moved to Southend 19th May 1967 as an early exhibit for the British Historic Aircraft Museum and later Historic Aircraft Museum at Southend. Assembled and re-painted as ‘VH-FDB’ in typical ’50s period ‘Royal Flying Doctor Service’ colours. Once HAM closed, entered in the 10th May 1983 auction, and sold for £1,700.
To the Warbirds of Great Britain collection, at Blackbushe c.1983.
Acquired by the Second Word War Aircraft Preservation Society Museum and moved to Lasham July 1985 and displayed by them outdoors until closed 2009. Retained the RFDS colours and ‘VH-FDB’ registration as applied by BHAM at Southend.
Dismantled by Barry Parkhouse and moved to his premises at Booker/Wycombe Air Park, by October 2010.
To St. Athan 5th August 2013 and stored inside.
(own notes, plus: Ken Ellis, ‘British Museum Aircraft’ 1977 & ‘Lost Aviation Collections of Britain’ 2011).
viscountAt risk of a ‘rap over the knuckles’ for copying directly from a ‘Mini-Monograph’ book: “Hawker Siddeley Gnat” by Paul A. Jackson, pub. by Alan W.Hall (Publications) Ltd – an ‘Aviation News Production’, no ISBN, no Pub. date (circa 1980), 32 pages. … actually the Mods should let me get away with it (this time) as the book does not include any copyright logo!.
Don’t know about XM709 but the answer regarding the silver/natural metal & day-glo scheme is not straightforward. On XM706 the day-glo included the tailplane fillets while in silver/natural metal – providing the graphics artist is correct! The photo of XM706 is a pixel print, so is not as clear as the original, and is earlier than the artwork (4.62 -c.4.65) – while the tailplane fillets are day-glo, the registration is on a patch of silver/natural metal (tail and underwing), so a clear difference. Hopefully enough clues to satisfy your need for accuracy. Several Gnats of the CFS wore the code ’92’ at different times, including both XM706 and XM709.
To provide the airframe history, from the same ‘Mini-Monograph’:
Initial production order of 14 aircraft, Contract 15434, XM691-XM709.
XM709, C/no. FL514 (14th production Gnat T.1), first flight 5th January 1962. Ready for collection 26.1.62.
Accepted by CFS at RAF Little Rissington on 2nd February 1962 and coded ’95’
Cat.3 flying accident 28.2.63, to HSA for repair and modifications 26.6.63-1.10.64. Returned to CFS, and re-coded ’92’
in early 1970 re-coded ‘C’, still with the CFS
With HSA for modifications and re-conditioning 14.4.71-27.10.71
From HSA direct to No.4 FTS at RAF Valley, and coded ’09’
Cat.3 unserviceable 27.2.74, repaired on site by 71 MU 7.3.74 to 25.7.74 and returned to No.4 FTS service
Retired to No.5 MU at RAF Kemble 7.11.78
SOC 4th March 1979
Allocated to No.1 S of TT at Halton for instructional use with ‘maintenance’ serial 8617M, with their code of ’67’.
Subsequent disposal is beyond the publication date of the book!
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[ATTACH=CONFIG]235071[/ATTACH] Click over to enlarge
viscountA few more details you don’t mention. Where about were are you when making these observations? Were the aircraft on airways and contrailing, or much lower down being vectored for approach?
Certainly from the North west of England at busy times of day it can appear that airliners on contrail, heading in the same direction down airways are ‘chasing’ each other. The height difference not discernable from 6-7 miles (30,000ft) away vertically. On numerous occasions I seen contrailing aircraft on ‘collision’ course, only of course, to pass directly over one another from my view-point – from the pilots perspective likely several thousand feet vertically.
Distance and size can play tricks with the eye. Years ago I was walking the dog in a hill-top park. Several other dog walkers were there too watching (what I knew to be a HS.748 and a Beluga) fly directly into each other and colliding – there was an audible release of breath when the aircraft became two again. On a map later I reckon they were around 10 – 15 miles apart (one on Chester finals, other in the Liverpool circuit). Watching different sized aircraft ‘stacking’, waiting for descent and approach into Heathrow can lead to similar visual tricks due to dissimilar sizes too.
Passengers tend to get rather concerned if another aircraft is seen, let alone flies ‘in formation’ – just consider the plethora of press comments and passenger photos when RAF Typhoons escorted an airliner into a landing at Manchester a few months back. In the USA where airports have parallel runways, both taking landing traffic it can be quite disconcerting to watch a much larger aircraft apparently flying just off your wing-tip at a slightly different speed descending parallel with you.
viscountIt is these ‘rules’ that make it impossible for me to consider joining in.
a) I’m not good enough to recognise any of the aircraft used as challenges.
b) Even if I did join-in at ‘open house’, I cannot use any of a number of photos I have from various sources, which while they may not challenge the regulars too much, are obscure enough for me not to actually know the answer to – which seems to be a pre-requisite of joining in. Bit of a ‘Catch 22’, can’t find out what they are on what seems to be the ideal ‘Wot plane?’ thread, because I don’t know what they are!
Just an observation that the ‘old hands’ may wish to ponder in the attempt to breathe new life into a very long running game.
viscountI know it will be early January before the answer appears in DSA movements on: http://www.fodsa.co.uk/
You would need to join, but likely anything interestingly large and noisy would attract comment on: http://www.dsaf.co.uk/
Moggy, I’m sure that I’m not the only enthusiast in the country not to have FR24!
viscountOzplane, the P.50 Prince 3 came with factory fitted alternative nose cones, long and short. Have a look at the wikipedia entry detailing Prince marks. There was also the P.54 Survey Prince with an extended nose to carry a camera.
viscountHi,
For another British aviation forum, I compiled a story of the initial rescue of Avian G-EBZM, before and indeed leading to the formation of NAPS, now TAC. Although this story is largely irrelevant to this thread http://derbosoft.proboards.com/thread/14435/avro-avian-ebzm-mgae-little the subsequent reply on the thread with a direct personal link to a former owner of G-ABEE may well of interest. Although the postee has not logged into the nwan site since posting, as a moderator I have access to an e-mail address, so am willing to pass on a message if this is of interest in the search for G-ABEE’s past – of course you may already be in contact. Do PM me to discuss any next move.
Brian Jones, Liverpool UK.
Not really worth a new post, but I am delighted that within a week David Edwards, son of a previous owner, and Paul ‘Avian’ the restorer are now in direct e-mail contact with each other. A small success story.
viscountAs a thought on this subject.
I associate the 70s/80s green/grey camouflage with the Tornado GR.1. Where the tails replaced as part of the GR.4 conversion process I wonder? Or had the grey/green camouflage gone long before the GR.4 conversion update anyhow?
viscountI was busy finding the link as Jon was posting the reply. Thanks Jon.
The answer is in one of the final tables after all the text. Not updated for around 2 years, but then not much new has happened in that period – actually I’ve just updated the few lines that relate to whole or part aircraft still around.
By unfortunate co-incidence Photobucket have decided to remove all my images within the last hour, despite my annual payment last month. Plenty of illustrations by others though.
viscountWhile for subsequent civilian owners:
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=reg&fullregmark=ANRM
and the two pages accessed as links from the base of that page.
Incidently, ‘Sabrejet’, what is the translation of ‘ToC’ some year and a half before final airframe erection?
viscountJust to clarify.
On a L-5 Sentinel, any 76-(four numbers) identity will be the manufacturer’s number (or construction number) allocated by Stinson. Stinson called the design the Model 76, the USAAF the L-5, the US Navy and Marines the OY-1. Other designations included O-62 and survivors in service became U-19 in 1962. The official USAAF designation would be presented as L-5-VW, L-5B-VW, L-5C-VW, L-5E-VW (these being the main production marks).
The USAAF serial/registration reflected the ‘fiscal year’ during which the aircraft was ordered, in the case of the L-5 series mainly in 1942 and 1944. The main big blocks of USAAF serials falling between 42-14798 to 15072, 42-98036 to 99753, 44-16703 to 18202 and 45-34911 to 35025. The presentation of such a serial on the fuselage or tail was likely as a six figure number, so 44-16703 would be presented 416703, but there were widescale variations to the presentation ‘rule’.
My statement regarding 76-2453 as a manufacturer’s construction number for your aircraft is speculation based on your VW-2453 number stated in the opening post and needs confirmation from either the airframe or a paper source.
The construction number could well be on paper documents linked to D-ELKO. I have looked through the ‘World Civil Registers’ section of Air Britain ‘Digest’ 1964 to 1971 but found no mention, however after the change of magazine format I do not have Air Britain ‘News’ for 1972 – which should include the registration cancellation!
As mentioned in an earlier post, back in 1986 I researched, with limited success, N8035H when it arrived at Liverpool Airport. It had been registered using the USAAF serial as a constructor’s number 44-17328 a L-5C-VW, which helped. We did not locate a constructor’s number on the accessible bits of fuselage, however subsequent research by someone has uncovered the Stinson number as 76-3615, This aircraft later briefly became G-BNUM before export to Germany as D-EONH in November 1987. Although the German owners have changed, the still airworthy and active aircraft is a frequent fly-in attender – still painted (confusingly) as a U.S.Marines OY-1 in the two-tone ‘Pacific Theatre’ blue colours it had been restored into pre 1986 export to Europe.
Good luck with your search for numbers on the airframe. I’m looking forward to reading the results of your search. Please report all numbers (even if nothing like those mentioned above) and their location on the aircraft. What sort of condition is the aircraft in, it is a very long time since registration cancellation in 1971?!
viscountConcerned that no one has had a go at finding information to answer this question. Several clues, but I have not managed to come up with anything helpful, just dead ends and conjecture. I have only used paper based sources, I have not tried a Goggle on any of my speculated numbers/identities.
My West German civil registers are too new to have information on D-ELKO, surely someone on this forum has access to register with D-ELKO, previous identities, owner, official c/no etc?
Coming at this from another direction, the Serial Number ‘VW-2493’. Well the VW in USAF abbreviation terms, stands for constructor: Vultee at Wayne – who built the vast majority, if not all, L-5s, indeed the type is more correctly designated L-5-VW, L-5B-VW, L-5C-VW, L-5E-VW etc reflecting this. By the WWII period, Stinson was a division of Consolidated Vultee (Convair).
My listing does not indicate any Construction Numbers, so looking at a list of USAF L-5s (an appendix at the back of ‘United States Air Forces Serials 1946-1977’ Peter Danby, MAS 1977), shows most to have 1942 and 1944 fiscal year serials. However, none appear to end with ‘2493’ – so a dead end for that thought too. USN Serials 1941-1972 (Peter Danby, MAS 1972) shows that USN 2493 was not a Stinson OY-1 (the Navy designation for an L-5), although there was a batch 02747-02788, so not far off – but another dead end!
Returning to the ‘Serial Number’ theme. Back in 1986 I did research into the history of N8035H on import to the UK (subsequently G-BNUM and now D-EONH). Therefore my interest in histories of the L-5 in Europe. The Constructor’s Number for that aircraft was quoted as the USAF serial, although we did trace (but not on the airframe) a C/no in a sequence 76-**** – a number low enough to allow 76-2493 to be a correct C/no for a L-5 Sentinel. The L-5/OY-1 was designed as the Stinson Model 76 by the manufacturers.
Although used in Europe during WWII by US Forces and the RAF, the type has been a very rare bird as a civilian in European skies since. Much more common post war in Europe is the slightly larger post-1945 Stinson 108 built for the civilian market. Aircraft C/no 108-2493 was certainly built as a Stinson 108-2, but I have no clue as the history of this particular aircraft (The GA Handbook Vol II R.W.Simpson 1982).
So does anyone with late 60s/early 70s West German civil registers find an entry for D-ELKO? To me, this seems to me to be the easiest way forward – unless someone knows otherwise!
viscountThe Career of Short 360 G-SSWM
BASIC AIRCRAFT HISTORY
Constructed by Short Bros at Sydenham, Belfast in 1984 as a Short 360-100 aircraft with Constructor’s Number SH.3648, showing it to be the 49th SD.360 built (including prototype) out of 165 completed. The aircraft first flew on 1st June 1984 in primer with Short Bros manufacturer’s ‘B Conditions’ registration G-14-3648. Once painted in the customer’s colours, wore UK Registration G-BLIL taped on for further pre-delivery flights.
As OY-MMB it was delivered on 5.9.84 to Air Business in Denmark and given the individual name ‘Holger’. Air Business was re-branded as Maersk Commuter 1.6.88. With both Air Business and Maersk it was operated in an overall mid blue fuselage, with a darker blue cheatline; the scheme matching the mainline Maersk colours.
The aircraft was purchased by Aurigny Air Services 19.4.90 for operations out of the Channel Islands as G-OAAS (Go Aurigny Air Services) and painted in their bright yellow colours with red tail logo and black cheatline and titles. The move up from Trislanders was successful, with the aircraft being used mostly on sectors from Jersey and Guernsey to UK and France, but mainly to London Gatwick. During the day used for passenger services, at night frequently on mail contracts. Eventually their SD.360 was replaced by Saab 340A aircraft and G-OAAS noted parked, out of service at Guernsey 1.6.98. UK registration cancelled 26.6.98.
Re-registered in Sweden as SE-KCI on purchase by Skylease Sweden AB 25.6.98 for onward lease to Swedeways Air Lines the same day. Aircraft arrived at Groningen 30.6.98. Noted at Exeter 7.99 on overhaul all white and shortly after repainted in Swedeways colours, mainly white with blue cheatlines along the lower fuselage. Swedeways, a Swedish regional operator, had its headquarters at Hudiksvall Airport and main operating base at Sundsvall-Harnosand, however ceased operations around September 2001.
The aircraft was brought back to the UK on purchase by brokers, Freshleave Ltd of Exeter 26.9.01, and two days later leased to Streamline Aviation for operation as G-SSWM (the SSW reflecting the operator’s ICAO code) for operation as a freighter mainly carrying small packages on contract to the likes of FedEx around Europe. Delivered to Southend around 2.10.01 for overhaul, it was in service by 16.10.01 retaining its former colours, with a small ‘Operated by Streamline Aviation’ sticker on nose. The company were purchased by Emerald Airways 9.02 and gradually absorbed into their operations. Although a Liverpool based HS.748 operator, the SD.360 fleet continued to be based mainly at Coventry. The aircraft was never repainted in Emerald colours or titles, retaining its former Swedeways scheme. At the time that Emerald ceased operations in early May 2006, G-SSWM was on protracted maintenance at Coventry.
Sold by the administrators KPMG to IAP Group Australia Pty Ltd 10.06, then onwards to SD.360 operator BAC Leasing Ltd 20.11.06, G-SSWM was broken up at Coventry July 2008 following spares recovery. The nose and front fuselage were saved from the scrapman and moved to private premises, location not published. After 6 years the nose section has reappeared in public view, now exhibited with the Speke Aerodrome Heritage Group and moved to their site on the former terminal apron behind the Crowne Plaza Hotel on Wednesday 6th May 2014.
The appearance of G-SSWM’s cockpit section in public, means that it is the nose G-SSWR that has been sunk in a quarry as a dive attraction. The two aircraft being in the same colours and scrapped at Coventry at the same time. The non-matching door and panel on the port side of G-SSWM were ‘donated’ by either G-SSWO or G-SSWB.
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G-SSWM seen on the main apron at LJLA, January 2003, while being operated by Emerald Airways not long after their acquisition of Streamline Aviation – it never did gain ‘Emerald’ titles or logo.
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Same aircraft in an earlier guise, as G-OAAS with Aurigny at Jersey on 3rd August 1992
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The day after arrival on the former apron at Speke
viscountSince last summer I’ve been working with Mike Davey to produce a detailed history of Avro 19 G-AGPG, much aided by the loan of the Log Books.
I have thought of also entering the history as a series of posts on this thread, but it is way, way longer than the average post here. Mods any thoughts? The detailed history can be found on:
http://derbosoft.proboards.com/thread/15011/story-avro-19-agpg
Having reference to the log books enables so much more detail and depth than most airframe histories, so makes a good read for those interested.
I know that Mike is eagerly waiting to be able to show off progress made on the restoration of the cockpit section this summer at selected ‘cockpit fest’ events.
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