Peter GEndurance – original requirement was long range interceptor and younger airframe.
A prototype ADV (strictly F.2) performed a typical CAP mission 600 km from base for 2 hours and 20 minutes with 2 1500L drop tanks, returning to base and loitering for 15 minutes and landing with 15 minutes reserves.
The Tornado F.3 had improved engines and the standard drop tanks are 2295 L types….
Not sure whether the Foxhunter radar could have fitted in the smaller Phantom nose.
The Phantom FGR.2 could have gone through to 2000 as they were re-winged 1989-90, but were retired in 1992.
Peter GFrench stuff is interesting. The threat in 1960s and 1970s was high altitude.
The Mirage F1C entered service in 1974 with EC 2/30 and EC 3/30. It was the first French fighter with an integrated navigation system with autopilot, VOR/ILS and TACAN for all weather intercepts. 81 F1 were delivered from 1973 – the first 69 lacked RWR. Next 81 were F1C-200 with inflight refueling between 1977 and 1983.
Cyrano IV radar was okay for the time.
Initial air to air weapons were the DEFA 30mm cannon only!
In the 1976 the R.530FE was cleared for service. This was replaced by the Super 530F from December 1979. It never used the Super 530D.
Close range missiles were Magic 1 (1978) and Magic 2 (1984)
It was retired from France air defence in June 1995, and never had a look-down capability. In continued on in Djibouti till June 2003.
Mirage 2000C entered service in July 1984 with EC 1/2. It always had internal jammer and decoys.
Aircraft delivered before July 1988 had RDM radar which had LD/SD added after the first 15 aircraft were delivered. Weapons were Magic 2 and Super 530F. These were retired 1998-99.
Remainder had RDI radar and Super 530D which was LD/SD and snap up mode (goodbye MiG-25….). A NCTR target mode was added in 2004. 34 were later updated to Mirage 2000-5F with Mica msls as interim to fill in for Rafale delays.
Mirage 2000C was okay, but lacked msl numbers – best is 2 Super 530D, 2 Magic 2. RDI range given as 90 km lookdown vs fighter.
With the Mirage 2000 family, especially Mirage 2000N/Mirage 2000D France really started to catch up other countries technology -Mirage 2000 had FBW, only downside was the low tech engine.
Mirage 2000N (in service 1988) was first French aircraft with automatic terrain following. It also had the standoff ASMP missile. Pretty good for nuke strike aircraft – better penetration compared with Tornado with nuke bombs.
Mirage 2000D (in service 1993) also had automatic terrain following, night capable laser designation and standoff msls (APACHE and SCALP EG).
Worst point of Mirage 2000 family is lack of hardpoints.
Peter GI have Su-27 deliveries delayed from 1983 to 1985 by flight control and radar issues. PVO from November 1986, VVS in mid-1988.
Numbers were
mid 88: 100
1991: 200, although also:
Aug 90: 229 with PVO and 128 with VVS (more likely as production would have slowed).
1993: production ceases with 640 SU-27 and 140 SU-27UB delivered.
Peter GAnother fact is acceleration, the F-4 manual with accelarate slightly slower than the MiG-23ML, so the MiG-23M probably was more or less an equivalent of the F-4E
MiG-23ML was 1250 kg lighter than the MiG-23M and had increased engine thrust….
I’ll see if I can find the AFM article which was based on Soviet sources and compared the MiG-23M, Kfir C.2, F-15 and F-16….
Peter GOverrated Su-27?
Even the Su-27 loses its gloss after scratching the surface.
N-001 radar failed state acceptance trials – range given as 140 km against bomber and 100 km vs MiG-21. N-001 lookdown performance would be as good as the MiG-29.
F-15A APG-63 is rated as 75 km vs Mirage IIIE and possibly 90 km; the later F-15C APG-70 could detect the MiG-23 at at least 130 km and the MiG-29 at 135 km+. The F-15C also had a NCTR mode added in 1987, which was hugely useful in 1991.
OEPS-27 optics are pretty cool – ranges claimed as 40 km against rear aspect non-reheat target. The laser rangefinder has a range of 8 km.
The radar is nothing special and again lacks a TWS mode – locking onto a target with R-27 means the radar display loses all other contacts. It does have a GCI and an AEW datalink. Pretty sure also has a fighter to fighter datalink.
Su-27 entered service in November 1986 (PVO) and VVS in mid-1988 – delayed by flight control and radar issues. Due to the radar issues, it officially entered service in August 1990, basically because the radar had to do. The Sorbtsiya jammer entered service at roughly this time.
Range looks impressive to start with at 3720 km clean, but this is reduced to 2800 km with 10 AAM fitted. This isn’t a huge improvement over the F-15 or similar types which can be refueled inflight and the countries usually have tankers available.
Typically AAM is 4 R-73, 2 R-27ET or 2 R-27P (R-27EP didn’t enter service till 1996) and 4 R-27ER. In 1987 it could be 6 R-27ER and 4 R-73. This is ‘only’ two more missiles than the Tornado F.3 or F-15.
R-73 is better than AIM-9L/M but by how much?
R-27ET is really low altitude chase, R-27P is interesting and was probably unknown to the West in 1987 – it has a lower Pk than the radar version but would have been a nasty surprise.
R-27ER has better kinetics than Sky Flash or AIM-7E/F. So much so the Russian Air Force wasn’t that excited about the R-77. Missile range would be limited by radar range than kinetics.
EW was only 24 decoys for early series, increasing to 96 later. Although fitted with internal Pallad jammer, this could only be used in aft arc with the radar in use.
Agility is pretty impressive, but only achievable with 2/3rd fuel load – max fuel is 9400 kg, but 3400 kg is considered ‘auxiliary tankage’ with some agility restrictions. They either have to launch with decreased fuel for initial high agility, burn the fuel on the way to the fight, or possibly dump the fuel (does the Su-27 have a fuel dump system?)
Some of the airshow stuff is cool, but how much fuel are they carrying even with the impressive weapons loads?
How useful is the cobra, etc? Slowing down in a dogfight might work 1v1, but what about that unseen aircraft – the Su-27 is essentially ‘dead in the water’.
Peter GMiG-25P
MiG-25P was a bomber interceptor. The weapons system was incapable of engaging low altitude targets. Agility was 5G at light weights or 2.2G with fuel in the wing tanks -forget about dogfighting.
Radar range was 100 km vs 16m2 (F-15ish sized tgt), missiles are R-40R and R-40T. The missiles were only rated against 2G targets.
It entered service in June 1972; the Smerch-A3 could detect targets above 500 m. A GCI datalink was also fitted.
Pretty telling they were converted to MiG-25PDS between 1982 and 1984 (part of this was the defection).
MiG-25PD entered service in 1978 and had a LD/SD radar with range increased to 115 km. The R-40RD was capable of LD engagements with the R-24R seeker, although the missile was rated against 4G targets.
Peter GMiG-29
MiG-29 is over or under rated depending on the source.
It entered service in 1983 and largely replaced the MiG-23M in East Germany from Jan 1986. It was officially accepted for service June 1987 due to issues with the radar.
Compared with JA 37 Viggen:
1) MiG-29 carries same number of AAM – 2 R-27R and 4 R-73. R-27R is probably slighly superior to Sky Flash, both have similar ranges and LD/SD capability. The JA 37 had the Rb 74 from 1987 , although superior to the Sky Flash and Rb 74 (AIM-9L from 1987 on JA 37)
2) Similar EW – both had RWR and flares (JA 37 fitted 1987; MiG-29 fitted 1986)
3) MiG-29 had superior agility no doubt on this. Soviet pilots had the training to use this in the 1980s as well.
4) MiG-29 has HMS, although its not fitted with a Western style debriefing system so some doubt and overrating of the MiG-29 system, its superior but by how much – how much value to a call over the radio if the aircraft are heading in different directions and R-73 engagement zone is marginal?
5) R-73 version in 1987 was the radio fused R-73K (laser R-73L in 1996). It can pull 40-50G compared with AIM-9L 32G. The missile seeker is nothing special to decoy. The HMS allows firing from 45 degrees off the nose, compared with the AIM-9L ~30 degrees – an improvement but nothing massive. Despite some impressive charts from the Carlo Kopp crew, the seeker can lock on to a fighter in military power headon at 7-8 km, max practical range is 14 km – both are improvements over the AIM-9 (AIM-9M is rated as 5 km headon against reheat fighter).
R-73 is an improvement over AIM-9L/M but is soundly spanked by the latest Western types (fair enough R-73 is 20 years old!). AIM-9X (and ASRAAM as they use similar seekers) can detect 15 km headon tgts against blue sky (3 x AIM-9M or twice R-73) or 7.5 km in ground clutter (JMR October 2005) – F-15C units have been achieving 20-22 km lock-on ranges….
IRIS-T is rated at 60G….
6) MiG-29 N-019 radar has limited search arc – 50 degrees in possible 120, it lacks a TWS mode (added JA 37 in 1990), LD/SD performance is said to be excellent (export had downgraded processor) – typically range said to 85 km (JA 37 ~50 km).
7) MiG-29 has a GCI datalink as does JA 37. JA 37 adds a fighter datalink in 1985 (2 aircraft, increasing to 4 in 1987)
MiG-29 is superior but the JA 37 is hardly a walkover….
Peter GMiG-23M restrictions
I’d disagree.
Mig-23M were in production 1972-78, delivered to VVS and PVO in 1973 and entered service 4 Jan 1974 when the R-23 msls were available: R-60 were available the same year replacing the R-13M.
Early MiG-23M were fitted with Sapfir-23L which could not detect tgts below 1000 m (no look-down) and were limited to 5G by weak fuselage and wing pivot restrictions.
Sapfir-23D were fitted from 1975 – these could detect low altitude tgts if the aircraft were at low altitude over relatively flat terrain. LD/SD range was only 10-20 km.
Improved manufacturing from 1977 meant the MiG-23M could use its full agility. Agility worse than MiG-21M, F-5E and slighly less than F-4. Close to MIG-21MF/bis agility. Soviet fighter pilots could begin to seriously train for WVR fights. So much so that an angle of attack limitation stick pusher was fitted from 1978
Peter GAustralian S-70A-9 are basically UH-60L. 39 were delivered between November 1987 and February 1992 (or late 1991). This makes the earliest 20 years old now; last NH-90 is due to be delivered 2015 -the last S-70A-9 would be 24 years old.
First 12 NH-90 are Dec 2007 to Dec 2009, with remaining 34 delivered between 2011 and 2015.
So the Blackhawks need replacing by something, I’m fairly sure the S-70A-9 lack a glass cockpit – the alternative was UH-60M.
The NH-90 was considered technically better – the requirement for all is marinisation (NH-90 comes as standard) – an S-70A-9 crashed on a ship deck November 2006 and quickly sank due to lack of emergency flotation bags. The S-70A-9 have been doing much more seaborne operations, but aren’t really suitable – two blades need to removed being into ship hanger.
NH-90 is fitted with flotation bags, folding blades (not fitted to UH-60L/M), weather/navigation/terrain avoidance radar, integrated EW, FLIR linked to HMD, IDM datalink, FBW controls for improved NOE flying (UH-60M also has), increased slung load (although UH-60M can lift same), NH-90 can carry more troops and has a rear ramp.
Not sure whether Australia has anti-icing or a laser obstacle avoidance system fitted.
Peter GFlight International has:
mid 2010: IOC for Navy with 1 aircraft at sea.
Late 2011: IOC for Army with 4 operational.
of the 46:
24 with 5th Aviation Regt (Army, Townsville, QLD) to replace Black Hawk as transports.
12 at Holsworthy, NSW for SOF transports, again replacing Black Hawk
6 for Navy at Nowra, NSW (817 Sqn) replacing Sea King (excellent!) in utility role
4 at Oakey, QLD for training.
ISTR they are 12 options as well.
Peter GTornado GR.1/4
Tornado GR.1 was a child of the 1970s – all weather day/night low altitude attack to avoid Warsaw Pact fighters largely lacking look-down radars and shot-down weapons.
1980s: Entered service in 1982 with WE177B nuclear bomb. Added huge capability to NATO until MiG-29/Su-27 were available (mid 1980s).
1990s: Changed in role to medium altitude attack. Only limited numbers were fitted with ALARM ARM msls and TIALD.
GR.1 were converted to GR.4 between 1998 and 2003. The huge advantage the GR.4 had over the GR.1 was the databus and wiring to hardpoints – any aircraft could carry any weapons/sensors.
GR.4 weapons are as good it gets for aircraft today:
TIALD target pod and some fitted with Litening III RD pods
Recon pods
Storm Shadow missiles
Brimstone missiles
Enhanced Paveway laser/GPS guided bombs
So much so that the limitation is crew training and not the aircraft.
GR.4 only lacks a phased array radar for truely all weather targeting. Warfare is becoming less about raw aircraft performance and more about sensors and weapons.
2000s: GR.4 has gone from strength to strength.
Peter GTornado ADV
The Tornado F.2 was in limited service with No 229 OCU between 1984 and 1986. The radar (standard PP) wasn’t fitted till 1985 and lacked ECCM and TWS – having said that it had longer range than the F-4. The 16 Tornado F.2 were declared to NATO as a wartime air defence unit in 1986.
The Tornado F.3 always had an operational radar (standard W) from service entry in 1987. This was at least as good as the APG-63 and had excellent ECCM and TWS added.
The radar went through a series of upgrades:
Standard Z met the original range requirement which was supposedly 185 km vs bomber and 120-130 km vs fighter
Stage One added HOTAS weapons selection (1989)
Stage One Plus adds close combat mode (1990)
Stage 2G adds NCTR mode (1995)
Initial weapons fit was a little disappointing – basically same as existing Phantom with 4 Sky Flash and 4 AIM-9L (still better than many fighters of the period).
Agility said to be poor above 25000 feet due to lack of thrust. Speed said to be fine, but acceleration, climb rate and sustained turn rate at higher altitudes suffered.
Cruise speed said to be low, which meant more use of military thrust which results in higher fuel consumption – would be poor in escorting attack aircraft.
Two squadrons were fitted with JTIDS in 1994 (RAF Sentry had full JTIDS capability by 1993). One squadron of F-15C was also fitted in 1994.
CSP upgrade (1998-02) added JTIDS to all – the F-15C was fitted with FDL from 2002 on.
ASRAAM replaced AIM-9M in 2002 (USAF F-15C didn’t get AIM-9X till November 2003)
AOP upgrade (2003-04) added AIM-120B (Operational June 2004)
FSP upgrade from Sep 2006 adds AIM-120C5 (msls this year?).
To actually get around to answering the question 😀 :
1980s: Excellent in UK air defence role – good endurance, the underrated radar was starting to come good with teh F.3
early 90s: Suffered a little as tasked in role not designed for.
late 90s: Improved radar and especially JTIDS helped out here.
2000s: Other than poor performance at higher altitudes, as good as anything else with weapons, datalink and radar.
Peter GI have the JA 37 operational with F13 in 1980.
F-15A was delivered to 36th TFW (Bitburg, Germany) in April 1977.
F-15C went to 32nd TFS (Soesterberg, Netherlands) from late 1979(?)
F-15 would be more agile – Viggen has that draggy delta wing. F-15 would have more thrust?
In 1980 F-15 had 4 AIM-9L as standard, Viggen had 4 Rb 24J (AIM-9J)
F-15 had 4 AIM-7F; Viggen had 2 Sky Flash (similar performance). These had poor Pk so an additional 2 medium range missiles would be useful.
F-15s have internal ALQ-135 jammer and decoys; JA 37 initially had nothing with BOP/A flare decoys in 1987, BOL 300 chaff in 1995.
JA-37 PS-46 radar range was 27 nm look down against a small fighter – say 36-40 nm look up?; the APG-63 was rated at 40 nm+ vs a Mirage III, with 48 nm also mentioned (radars were similar)
The JA 37 had a GCI datalink (fighter link operational in 1985); the E-3 Sentry entered service in 1978 although comms are non-secure voice radio.
The JA 37D (1997) could carry 3 RB99 (AIM-120B), U-95 jammer pod and 2 Rb 74 (AIM-9L); whereas the MSIP F-15 (same period) would typically carry 6 AMRAAM, 2 AIM-9M.
Viggen would have the edge in situation awareness in home defence, and had a survivable air basing system. Radar performance would be similar, although F-15 would be more survivable due to EW fit and improved agility.
Peter GOpher is IR-guided and was used by Italian AMX in 1999.
AASM was planned for Mirage 2000D and Mirage 2000N, but French Mirage 2000 integration was canceled. Still planned for Rafale.
The 4 fuselage corner hard points can also carry EU2 250 kg bombs and Belouga cluster bombs (ISTR retired?)
The centerline pylon can also carry 2 GBU-22 or 1 GBU-24 or 1 APACHE or 1 SCALP EG missile (Mirage 2000D); Mirage 2000N is GBU-24 or 2 GBU-12 or ASMP.
I think Greek Mirage 2000-5EGM are planned for AASM?
Peter GI believe if the C-130J had not been developed, the USAF would be trying to get Congress to purchase A-400Ms right now.
ISTR USAF Special Operations are looking at the A400M. However the time frame to replace the MC-130 will probably be a little too tight….
Sign In
