martinezIs the Pope a Catholic ????? 😀
Yes – we (the tour group I go with) will be there on Friday 21st and Sunday 23rd.
I hope there will be something worth seeing ……
Prototype/Mockup PAK-FA…..
Su-35 (902) flying………
Ken
Is the Pope a Catholic ????? 😀
Oh yeah, how could anyone ask that kind of question, you not visiting MAKS 😀
Yes – we (the tour group I go with) will be there on Friday 21st and Sunday 23rd.
I`m going to Moscow in Monday and will be there till Sunday, when I see you standing there I`ll say hello. Does your tour group regularly visit Zhukovski tower during the airshow, to take pictures from there? If it is not secret what other places do you plan to visit during your trip to Russia?
Thanks, Martinez
martinezIt must be a recent addition – it wasn’t there at MAKS 07…..
Ken
I asked about Chaff/flare dispensers during MAKS2007 when walking around and detailing the Mig-29KUB, they just were not installed before the airshow. Anyway, this design solution looks even more temporary compared to the standard placement of the Chaff/flare dispensers on the Mig-29, but is probably more effective.
Ken, are you planning to visit MAKS in august?
hmm, probably a dumb question, sorry….:)
martinezI wasn’t suggesting he go into afterburner BEFORE letting off on the brakes. 😮 Simply shove the throttles all the way forward and let off the brakes at the same time instead of wating three or four seconds.
I bet the F-15 pilot would say “I did it exactly the same way.” 🙂 I think he let the brakes off when hitting MiL power, in the right time bcs then he would start to burn brakes.
martinezThe shortest take-off, I believe is the JA-37, bar the Harrier.
very nice 8 second take-off, but very short display bcs of less fuel.
martinezThe new edition of this book is coming:
http://airforce.ru/book_review/hungary/index.htm
The author collected photos – I hope cockpit shot too;) – details on the nuclear capable MiG-29 also.In Hungary, the Kiskunlachaza based 14.gv.iap. had a squadron with this role, they flown with the bomb-pylon always.
Thanks for that info, I`ve met Karoly in Kecskemet several years ago, where I bought his book. Do you know authors of this book?
Soviet Air Force over Czechoslovakia 1968-1991, part 1.
http://www.japo.eu/products.php?prod=12
martinezNice pictures Robert, but what about a nuclear capable Fulcrum, do you know where the switchbox or the electronic block was located? Thanks
martinezRumour or not – I do not know….
There is something true on that story, they certainly could misuse the SRO-1, SOD-57, 57M gears, the SRO-2/SRZO-2 worked a bit different, it wasnt screamimg all the time like the ATC gears, but not saying it was bullet-proof. They might misuse it as well. The soviet “81E” bulletin was issued in late 70s, but we began to install it in early 80-s almost to all military aircrafts and helicopters equiped with SRO-2/SRZO-2, 2M. During that time Soviets were using Parol for a decade, therefore I doubt they were worried about.
martinezOn the way….publish at late October.
A bit late – all publishers crying about the world financial crisis….
It gave me the chance, to fit in an additional chapter – I found some guys, who were trained in Mari AB, and took photos also.;)Do you have any infos, when reached the information the Czechoslovak AF about the “Combat Tree” equipment of the Phantoms ?
Super, looking forward to see it !!
Regarding the Combat tree legend, which is exaggerated more perhaps by some aviation scribblers than to be true, I know when we began to upgrade the SRO2/SRZO2 gears with the “81E switch”.
martinezMaybe…
“Semi-offtopic”, few pics from my archive, I hope you will enjoy:
http://www.scramble.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=48711&hilit=soviet
sainz = RobertS;)
Robert, what happened to your Mig-21 book? thanks
martinezThe problem I see here is that from your book and from the testimony of the Red Eagles’ pilots, an unbiased reader would definitely get an impression that the fire system installed on the Floggers was faulty/crappy and automatically deduce that similar problems must have plagued the whole WarPac. He would probably never learn that the problem was incorrect maintenance..
Well, he hopes that the book is transparent enough for most reasonable readers to recognise that these men didn’t always get it right and were not perfect. For being transparent, I think his book is rather rude giving a clear picture what they thought of the Mig-23…and the point here was not to discredit them by citing from the manual, but to show that they`ve been discrediting them selves and their maintenance guys as well immediately when he has begun to interview them for the book.
copy&paste….page 296
Since its introduction to the 4477th TES in 1980, the Mig-23 had developed a reputation among the Red Eagles that made it infamous. Press was most blunt of all about it: “It was a piece of $hit”
Some, like Geisler, actively sought to avoid flying it, and many thought that it represented all that was bad about Soviet engineering and safety. Scott, the only one ……..summed it up best: “Of all those airplanes, the Mig-23 ranked bottom. Matheny was even more scathing” The best thing we could have done was buy as many as we could afford and give them all to our enemies so that they could all kill themselves flying it: “It was a stastus symbol to fly, but I got to tell you, every flight in that thing was a major concern to me.”
To be honest, from the accident record database of the Czechoslovak airforce there were couple cases in the timespan 1977-1982 when the fire alarm was triggered accidentally, for example in the first one the Flogger pilot flying low in a heavy rain experienced fire alarm light flashing. He assured that engine parameters were OK and that he is not burning by looking back, aborted the mission, landed safely. The explanation was quiet clear, a small gap in one engine panel caused to suck water , vapour inside the engine bay which is not hermetically sealed making the air electrically conductive for the fire alarm detectors. In another accident during take-off on reheat, the fire alarm went on, but even if for real a pilot trained for emergency procedures knows what to do. He landed and ground maintenance found the fire detector electronic block faulty and changed it.
I have not ever said that the fire extinguishing system was flawless, nor were the Flogger aircrafts evaluated by Red Eagles. The true is if not maintained properly, the false alarm accident rate could be increased.
martinez[QUOTE=michelf;1433650]Or one might draw a different conclusion that in spite of not having access to a full and complete set of documentation they derived, empirically, an operational manual as best they knew that permitted them to operate over a number of years and in a relatively intense manner a foreign aircraft completely removed from its logistic chain.
Now in hindsight and with additional knowledge the opinions/ ‘facts’ that were derived ‘professionally’ at the time may be incorrect or themselves deficient. [QUOTE]
With my limited English, I would not say it as delicately as you.:)
martinezToday, we are going to analyze another Red Eagles “professional” opinion regarding the R-29 engine…
page227, Red Eagles by Steve Davies.
In addition, because the R-29A ran extremely hot, the fleet was plagued by false alarms when the temperature sensors in the engine bay of the gangly jet reach a critical temperature , thus energizing fire warning lights in the cockpit. Such an indication resulted in an immediate “Knock it off!” call and return to TTR. Each fire warning light activation was treated with the utmost caution and respect, and following a thorough inspection on the ground the aircraft in question would have to be flown on an FCF sortie before it could be released back onto the flying schedule. On one occasion, Shervanick had to fly three FCF sorties in a row on the same Flogger when the fire warning light illuminated on successive flights. “It felt like every day one of the Mig-23s had a fire warning light come on, ” Geisler reflected,”and so we ended up putting in a seconf fire warning system that was of American design…
Let`s now check the “primitive” principle of the Mig-23BN fire extinguishing system (FES).
The Mig-23BN FES comprises the fire detection system and the fire extinguishing system in the engine bay.
The fire detector probes IS-5M are two heat/flame-resistant metal tubes installed on the whole perimeter of the frame nr. 29 near the hot section part of the R-29 engine(pic. 1). IS-5M tubes are mounted to the fuselage by brackets with ceramic isolators wearing a hydrophobic coating. The principle of work is based on the detection of electric conductivity in any flame burning in the air, therefore IS-5M fire detectors do not respond to temperature changes in the engine bay. When the fire detectors IS-5M are shorted to the engine body due to presence of foreign objects the FES will not be activated, but a sporadic flashing the warning light “POZHAR” (pic.2) in the cockpit might be possible.
Inspections, maintenance and operation of the IS-5M probes.
1. Take care of the insulator and detector cleanliness because their contamination may originate to false alarms.
2. It is forbiden to wash the insulators with gasoline to avoid damage to the water-repellent coating. Only wiping with clean dry cloth is allowed.
3. Prevent pieces of foreign objects from getting into the gap between the engine body and tubes, check the gap between detectors and the fuselage and take care to maintain this gap within prescribed limits.
Again, the stuff comes from maintenance and operation manual of Mi-23BN, the same principle of fire detection is used on the Mig-29, Su-27,. ……Anyway, draw your own conclusion.
P.S. next time, landing the Flogger with Red Eagles, very interesting claims indeed…;)
martinezMost of the pilots selected to go to the Red Eagles have been unscientifically categorised as in the top 50 of the tactical aviators in TAC. With few exceptions, they were initially from the Aggressors, where only the best air-to-air guys went, and we later almost exclusively graduates of the Fighter Weapons School. In both cases, these guys had the best stick and rudder skills in the Air Force, and were probably amongst the best in the world. As such, their views were professionally as valid as you could hope to hear, irrespective of where they had learned to fly the MiGs. Their question was: ‘How do you kill this MiG if it is being flown to the absolute limits?’, and the answer was tailored to the individual fighters that would come up against it. In this case, the answer also had to be honest.
.
This is rather a misunderstanding of the concept of military pilot training. While I agree, the Red Eagles were among the best in the world in “stick and rudder handling” or having the best operative experience with aircrafts type like the F-16, F-15, F-4 and their views, opinions related to these a/cs would be considered the most professional without any doubt. Nevertheless, things change when F-16, F-15, F-4 pilots are undergoing conversion to type training for example the F-22 when they are put back behind school desks to learn everything important about new aircraft design, systems, controls, flight characteristics, weapons,.. using all kind of teaching aids, manuals and tools, technology simulators created for this purpose. Until they pass exams proving they know their future job they`ll not be allowed to touch or to fly solo the aircraft. Therefore the question is what makes pilots to be professionals?
Without any doubt an excellent knowledge of the aircrafts design, systems, controls, flight characteristics,… etc lately exploited when flying the aircraft. Then saying “the best in stick and rudder skills” could mean the practice part of the pilot training program, the aircraft combat employment as well and when translating it to the Soviet-style of pilot training, the Class III, II, I pilot classification, a proccess taking some hundreds of flight hours of practicing according to KBP FIA-75(KBP IBA-75 for the Mig-23BN) training schedule in case of the fighter version of the Mig-23.
Now, when putting Red Eagles in this picture, anyone can recognize the difference at first look. Lack of complete or any aircraft documentation, pilot or maintenance manuals, teaching aids, not to mention about aircraft spares, ground support tools, testing stands for a/c aggregates,..etc. Some of the pilots might not even seen a Soviet aircraft before, some had average experience with the Mig-21f from another evaluation programs. They always learnt their skills the hard way, what is not the correct way especially when trying to evaluate and maintain a foreign aircraft. Therefore from this point of view, I dare to say that Red Eagles knowledge base of the Mig-23 aircraft was no doubt inferior to the skills of a East Pac airmen.
My effort here was to scrutinise their remarks critically to figure out what they’re really saying, and then assume what kind of problem that they`re dealing with. Sometimes, their conclusions about the Flogger seem wrong and unfairly drawn, rather ridiculous probably influenced by the fact explained above.
Let see another example: page 297, copy&paste
The poor visibility and ergonomics of the cockpit meant that the Flogger pilot was always either busy manipulating switches, trying to visually acquire the enemy,or preoccupied with his fuel state. “The fuel gauges were funny,” Matheny explained. “They measured fuel in a pipe, not what was in the actual fuel tanks. You filled up the airplane and then set the fuel gauges for around 400 liters. When the motor started, the fuel ran through the pipe and the gauge started going down. You had to be a little concerned that it was measuring it right, bcs it wasnt always the same as what you actually had in the tank.
Lets take a brief look at the Mig-23BN aircraft fuel system. The fuel is contained in five fuel tanks located in the aircraft fuselage (pic.1) marked No.1a, No.1, No.2, No.3, No.4 and three fuel tank section in each wing. Total amount of fuel in the fuselage and wings is 4670kg (5627l) by the fuel density 0.83. The fuel tank No.2 is a main one, the fuel is further delivered to the engine pump and engine itself. The aircraft is equiped with the RTS-1-1 fuel metering system comprising the US3-T6 combined fuel gauge(pic.3) holding the fuel usage function and the fuel quantity gauge. The fuel usage metering is done by the RTST-50B probe located in the pipe near the engine pump and corrected by the DRTS-0,4 probe signals comming from the fuel tank No.2, introducing correction for the temperature(above 120deg C) of the fuel used as well.
Each of the aircraft fuel tanks has its own probe DS5-1T/SDU2 (pic.2)measuring the pressure or the fuel level inside giving the pilot instantaneous information when:
Order of fuel usage (pic.3):
Wing ext. fuel tanks emptied (green light)
Fuselage ext. fuel tank emptied (green light)
Fuel tank No.1A emptied (green light)
Fuel tank No.4 emptied (green light)
Wings fuel tanks emptied (green light).
Fuel tank No.3 emptied (green light)
Fuel tank No.1 emptied (green light)
The main fuel tank No.2 has two probes giving the pilot instantaneous information when:
Emergency 600l of fuel left in the fuel tank No.2(red light)
Fuel tank No.2 emptied (red light)
Note: R29B-300 fuel consumption during 7 min while taxiing at ground idle is 170 liters, the amount of unusable fuel in the main tanks is 160 liters.
When maintained correctly the Mig-23BN fuel metering system is stated to have an error of less than 1,5% of total 8700liters of fuel capable measuring.
Now, in the light of presented facts taken from the aircraft documentation, compare them with Red Eagles comments when evaluating the Mig-23 about filling the aircraft and setting the fuel gauge to 400liters, or claims about the fuel gauge giving the fuel usage information from the fuel pipe only forcing pilot to be preoccupied with his fuel state…..and draw your own conclusion.
P.S. there is certainly more to comment.
martinezWhen I read about Bond’s accident I never got the impression that the “crappy soviet piece od $hit called Mig-23 killed one U.S. hero pilot.” Mr Davies has said that he never wrote the paragraph with the intent to give the reader that impression and I don’t believe everyone got that impression at all….save you and only for your own purposes.
You deliberately spun what the author wrote in order to give your other arguments validity. .
When checking your replies on this thread you must be smoking some seriously bad stuff. Yes, Mr. Davies said following when someone asked him about giving “piece of $hit” impression in his book.
copy&paste
“If that’s the impression they get about the MS or BN, then good.”
martinezI think the word professional is completely apt for what I was refering to. These pilots may not have been formally trained in the operation of Soviet Migs but are undoubtedly professionals. They wouldn’t have managed to conduct such an operation if this wasn’t the case..
Lets be fair and give some credit to Mr. Davies for the book he wrote about Constant peg. I like the chapter “Bond`s mishap” bcs it is showing the level of professionalism and competence of U.S. pilots evaluating Mig-23 aircrafts. I`m afraid that this one reported case might only be the tip of the iceberg.
May your soul rest in peace LtGen Robert “Bobby” Bond.
copy and paste, page 224
As they went methodically and slowly through carefully created TX syllabus with their Red Eagle IPs, another man was about to rush that proccess. It would cost him his life. The mishap report remains mostly classified, but several Red Eagles who have seen it or were given pertinent information from it at the time were highly critical af his actions. One of them said without sympathy, “he should have read the flight manual”…….Instead of in-depth academic classroom study and supervised sorties that he had been created and approved by test pilots of his own command, Bond had opted for an expedited explanation of the Mig`s operating procedures that was insufficient by the standards of the briefest of TX syllabi.
Mr. Davies then describes the tragedy in detail, but his arguments were actually so weird that they really bothered me for some time. Probably everyone reading it will get an impression that the crappy soviet piece od $hit called Mig-23 killed one U.S. hero pilot.
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