The Schlem is good for WVR, but what about BVR? From the way the manual looks, anything targeted that is displayed outside of the HUD, BVR or WVR mode, R-73, R-27 or R-77, can be displayed by the Schlem.
Please post the relevant excerpts in detail..
…..you can launch the R-27R1 with use of the HMS(Mig-29A), but you have to make visual contact with your target. So, the BVR is impossible with the Schlem. (“Schlem” translated to english means simply “HELMET”).
When not using the HMS, you see blips on the IPV screen, the CVM selects the most dangerous one from a group of ten detected targets. While are you waiting for Dmax, you`ve got time to handle some switches(air conditioning, cockpit illumination,.. 😀 ). You fire a missile just by pressing single button, it`s never been so easy. During that combat procedure you`re keeping your hands on stick and throttle. No doubt that Mig-29A outclasses the F-16A in BVR as well.
You seem to have a view that just by putting MFDs everything becomes ok and that encompasses the term “ergonomics”. Of course, anyone saying anything different- gee, hes criticizing a Russian wonder weapon.
Heh…you seem to have a view that by adding an analog gauge to the cockpit you`re automatically saying “that is poor ergonomics”. Therefore most of you “wessies” are having these cockpit ratings.
1. one CRT, all-analog gauges, like the Mig-29A, poor ergonomics :rolleyes:
2. three large color LCD with a few back-up gauges, like the Su-27SM, decent but not good ergonomics
3. all glass cockpit, Su-35UB mock-up cabin, good but not no way as good as the US. 😀
The sad thing is that you know a **** how russian cockpits work, because you never have flown the Mig or Su, you just like LCDs, like small kids. Complaining about “clutter and excess switchology” before having mastered the russian cockpit, not to mention the cyrilic alphabet seems to be very shortsighted. What I also ment was that it is ridiculous to value a cockpit in terms of “ergonomics” just by looking at the picture.
Do you have hands on experience with the Mirage 2000H as well? I have given you the exact quotes that were said to me,..
I never had and never wanted, but I`ve got hands-on experience with soviet aircrafts such as the mig-21, 29 and others from the maintenance POV. Please do not be angry with me, but all you`ve told me is nothing more than false roumours spread by some species.
Please see in comparison, which is more cluttered and which has a large centrally positioned color CRT, which many new pilots find more helpful and intuitive.
I`m getting some kind of advs banner “image hosted…”
FYI, for all your defence of RSK MiG, your experience with them may have been different though- heres another snippet direct from source, RSK MiG were busy trying to convince the end user to stick with CRT’s because they were “better” and “cheaper” than fragile LCDs, of course when local Russian industry started with MFDs, based on imported LCDs their tune changed overnight. And now they insisted that without MFDs cockpit would be obsolete. So much for these infallible gents, India has had bad experiences with MiG
Geez…..and what are you trying to prove with that? Those are ridiculous rumours again and no one care about them. You are making an elephant from a fly! Then why is India still using them, if they have had bad experiences with them. Even they want to buy new Migs-29 and modernize the old ones. This is a fact, which proves your claims to be wrong.
regards
Martinez
No, we might not. First, I am not American, so is not my HOTAS.
Geezz….I didn`t want to offend you much by saying that you are an American. 😀 I`m sorry if I did. I just thought that US first started with the buzzword HOTAS, thinking that they invented a wooden iron. 😀
Let me be more clear: how many buttons and switches has a MiG 29 turn/press in order to fire a missile? Inform yourself and we’ll talk.
NO ONE!!, the Mig-29 pilot kills enemies just by looking at them, still keeping his hands on stick and throttle. 😎
regards
Martinez
Too much clutter and excess switchology
Not surprising findings of american F-16C/D, F-18C/D pilots accustomed to work with glass cockpits. On the other side they were astonished by the functionality of the HMS system, how easy a Mig-29A can fire a missile. Because of Schlem the Mig-29 clearly outclasses most fighters of his generation(mentioned above) in close range, so in this case the Mig has better man machine interface. Agree?
Poorly designed man machine interface as a result of which “new” pilots had to spend more time learning all the switchology and operating instructions of eqpt, in contrast to western cockpits, which new pilots found more intuitive and practical
Ehm… I do not know where all this is comming from, probably I`ve got “hands-on” experience with soviet aircrafts, so where you served?. We should be able to compare the man-machine interface of the F-16A against the Mig-29A, I want to know what was poorly designed on the Mig-29 cockpit, exactly!!
Not understanding you here – didnt I say MKK/MKI cockpit are relatively decent? Also, in regards to newer MK series cockpit, the IAF found that symbology and display etc were too cluttered – they put this to infamiliarity of Russians with western design practise or perhaps standardization with other russian programs So it was refined
I asked, do you have idea how data, what symbology are displayed on the MFD in the Su-30MKK/MKI? If you know that you have got the MKK/MKI documentation, otherwise you are guessing and making it look like facts.
Anyway, would you please give me a credible source stating that, I must admit I`ve never heard of such problems of the Indian Su-30MKI.
they look like they have been squeezed together into a space not meant for them.
That is the kind of ridiculous argument, you are complaining about things that are irrelevant, rather be straight you do not like analog gauges. :rolleyes: Realize that each modernization program has to be acknowledged by the other side, so whether RuAF, IAF or PLAAF are responsible how the cockpits will look like. The same deals for our small fleet of Mig-29 being modernized by the RSK MIG, it depends mostly on money.
Martinez
By the way, IIRC the M flew for the first time in 1986 and its development was finished only in 1992. So in 1985 it was probably in mock-up stage.
That is your paper project….
The fact is that MF displays(cathode ray) were first installed in Western fighters.
when was it for the first time?
The situational awarness offered by them was matched only later by Russian planes.
please, just one example
The M is one of the endless series of paper project, a field where Russians excel…
Hmm, what is a paper project according to you?, the M prototypes had flown with glass cockpits for sure.
I would add that aside MFDs another vital point in a cockpit ergonomics is HOTAS. Something US planes had from ’70. When did the Russian fighters assimilate it? Late ’90 I believe…
The common problem here, detailed knowledge of soviet weapon systems. Let see those 70`s, this is what the throttle and stick of the Mig-23 offers to control.
throttle
Button 1.
mode A. interrogate IFF
mode B. Lock-on cancel
mode C. PZ-caged seeker mode for launching guided missiles
Button 2. A. aerodynamic brake
Button 3. A. communication, radio
Potentiometer:
mode A. controlling Sapfir radar ranger-acquisition box while tracking
mode B. changing radar scan zone in elevation while searching
mode C. changing aimming crosshair while using optical sight ASP-17ML.
control stick
Button1. trimm button
Button2. leveling into horizontal plane, engaging autopilot
Button3. to disengage SAU autopilot modes
Button4. lock-on
Button5.
mode A. to control air-surface Kh-23M,
mode B. uncaged seeker mode for R-60.
Button6. canon
Button7. droping bombs, launching unguided/guided missiles
Does it look a bit like your “AMERICAN” HOTAS? I counted 16 functions on stick and throttle, we might compare it with the F-4.
I don’t know, I’ve never seen anything but the Su-27SKM Bort 305 cockpit in that regard- another problem with the MAKS 2001 shot (asides from the fact it’s from a totally different company :)) is that back then I don’t believe the Su-27SM upgrade even existed yet!
yes, we are talking about Ramenskoye avionika which made the glass cockpit of the SM, I put the photo here just for illustration. I met guys from Ramenskoye at ILA06, but they were not much helpful when I asked about SM cockpit details. 🙂
The first truly glass cockpit was the F 18 A (the first unit went operational in US Navy in 1983). Did you have the slightest idea how the Soviet cockpit looked in those days?
I compared cockpits of first gen. of fighters Mig-29A, Su-27, F-15A/B, F-16A/B. Personally I find those US cockpit a lot messy. Do you have the slightest idea how the cockpit of Mig-29M looked like in 1985? I hope there is no need to explain why the Mig-29M is not in service yet.
Uhm- I know for sure that MiG cockpits were regarded as poorly designed by IAF pilots who flew them, but they appreciated the Russian emphasis on standardization of instruments which speeded up conversion from one type to another
Would you please describe that in detail, what was poorly designed in Mig cockpits? I had never heard similar complains from German, Hungarian, Polish, Czechoslovakian pilots…. thanks
Secondly ergonomics is more than just MFDs, it depends on HOW you place them, where you place them and how data is presented as well.
Ok, I agree, but you have to admit this is where your knowledge ends about russian cockpits. Do you know what, where, how the data are displayed on the MFDs in Su-27SM,SKM,Su-30MKK?
The entire man machine interface, and in this, from pilots who have flown both, the west clearly had a lead
You are missing the point, please try to look at that from my side. The west had flown the Mig-29A with aging avionics and situational awareness from early eighties, thats correct.
The picture you posted is better than the previous piccie though, and the MKK/ MKI cockpits are relatively decent
Ehm, the only difference I see there are those back-up gauges. So maybe this is all about the “russian cockpit” color which disturbs you most? 🙂
There are some photos of the cockpit of the Su-27SKM – the ‘Kommercial’ (Export) version on my website.
They are taken from the Sukhoi brochure and Air Fleet magazine.
Scroll down to the bottom of…..
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/flankers_pages/su-27sku.htm
Never having seen a ‘real’ Su-27SM cockpit, I can’t say whether the RusAF -SM is the same as the -SKM – but it must be similar ?
Ken
Thanks a lot Ken!, your page has always been a source of inspiration for me, since I started to use the internet back in 1995. The photo VYMPEL sent here looks like the cockpit of the Su-27SKM. I`m trying to point out that no one yet have seen the SM cockpit in real. I presume that all publications, magazines have used photos of different upgraded Su-27,30 versions to represent the SM cockpit.
Martinez
Those MFDs are really arranged in a messed up manner
Dunno but Russias approach to ergonomics for its own AF a.c still leaves a lot to be desired 🙁
That`s funny, because those western cockpits have always looked to me a lot messier than russian ones, unreasonably placed and unreadable small gauges, not to mention the boring black color all around. With introducing of large MFDs the discussion about ergonomics should be worthless, bcs you can show the data you wanted on any MFD you have. So, basically you are kidding when talking about ergonomics.
regards
Martinez
No, it’s from the Su-27SM, the configuration given for it’s glass cockpit was always that arrangement, and the cockpit picutres of the Su-27SKM (Bort 305) which was the prototype for the Su-27SM, of sorts (with the exclusion of the IFR probe, it seems) were that configuration as well.
Are you really sure the cockpit is from the Su-27SM? Have you seen it personally? I thought about this one, three large displays of the same size in a row. IIRC it was presented by Russkaya Avionika as a mock-up cabin at MAKS2001.
I think the picture you posted depict the latest batch of the Su-30MKK for China. As I heard the SM cockpit should be fitted with three large displays of the same size. Looking at the cockpit picture above there is only one way how to install three of them in a single row, to place them vertically.
Anyway I find it interesting that during the visit of Lipetsk, Mr. Flanker_man was even not allowed to get closer to the Su-27SM. Then how it is possible that most of newspapers, magazines printed for MAKS2005 had published cockpit photos of the Su-27SM. Any clues?
Does anyone have seen the real SM cockpit? thanks
Martinez
It`s pitty that the weather didn`t play with, the video quality might be definitely better. Pilots need to get hours to get familiar with that plane, no question about it. No worrying about angle of attack and loosing speed, someone had to rewrite the pilot training procedures in the USAF. We`ll see what happen next, but please no more those high-alpha-circus-sitting-duck-stunts, we were used to see them with the Su-37 Terminator. 😀 😀
Martinez
Sounds like a fun time if you get a bird strike.
So far so good, canopies work great for many years now and you again learnt what means simple and effective. But I understand that a $338 million dollar plane must need at least four skilled firemen dressed in NOMEX suits holding special chainsaw tools. 😀 😉