David.

“I would like to be in a position in ten to twenty years time to show my son an example of British designed and built Shackleton. At the present rate of decline unless I take him to see an AEW .2 at Manchester it’s doubtful he will. Maybe ‘bright and shiney’ should win everytime ? Roll in a BA Concorde so we can marvel at the upholstery and look at the drinks trolly ! Who needs all that technical stuff?”

I’ve not been for a long time but surely Manchester is worth a visit in it’s own right? And as you say they have a Shackleton. Although I don’t think Duxford is the right place for a BA Concorde (interesting point you made about the IWM rebranding itself) if one is to go there perhaps it will provide a significant draw to the non-enthusiast public. Yes, we will go time and time again, but the extra income generated by people who find the Concorde to be a particular draw could perhaps then go to the restoration of aircraft such as the Shackleton, Victor or any other deemed to be ‘under threat.’

“I made the point of access rather badly – what I meant to say was that your wheelchair isn’t the thing making you disadvantaged in terms of access – the problem exists in the provision of getting you places whether it’s through a door way or up a flight of stairs.”

That’s what I was trying to say in my own clumsy way. I’m not neccessarily talking about access to an aircraft but access to be able to see it better. Same thing goes for other exhibits. One well known museum I have visited has real access problems to some exhibits, but in their defence I think it is something they are trying to rectify.

“The point I make of the ‘flyer’ is simple – is everyone in a wheelchair in the same circumstances or should we who are not in wheelchairs be open minded and not just treat yourself and others as a ‘group’ with exactly the same needs? “

A good point well made. And I don’t know how to respond. On a personal level I realise now I have not accepted the extent of the problems I have now or will have in the future. So I want all the help I can get. I don’t want to accept that I am excluded just because of something that wouldn’t have been an obstacle to me twelve months ago.

Regards,

kev35

David.

“The crux of the debate is ‘you either have this or nothing’.
When did it become impossible to restore a machine such as the
Shackleton when it is possible to buy a Spitfire ,restore it and then exchange it for a Liberator which also requires restoration.
You then set out on the process of restoring the B-24 with a team of full time and volunteer labour. I would be very interested
to know at which stage the £1 million pounds mark would have been exceeded.
The cost of restoring the Shackleton could quite easily have been less than the cost of removing the glass panels
from the AAM to allow the B-24 in !”

Again I bow to your superior knowledge. But the Shackleton is still rotting away merrily is it not? It seems to me it is impossible for the Shackleton to be restored unless someone comes up with the money. I can’t comment on the IWM’s dealings but if it came to a choice between a Spitfire, Shackleton or B24 as you seem to be suggesting, I’m extremely happy with the B24 thank you.

” Regards my earlier post – well I stand by my comments.
The simple facts are that many aircraft are simply too difficult
for disabled people to get into in a museum enviroment . It doesn’t mean your disadvantaged because of your disability – it just means that it wasn’t a factor in the design.
If I was in a wheelchair I wouldn’t find that a discriminatory factor but simply a part of history.”

David, please, nowhere have I sugeested anything like that have I? I don’t expect to be able to access many airframes directly, I really don’t know why you’ve got this bee in your bonnet about that. Just try looking at every airframe with your eye level 2 to 3 feet lower than normal, and see if you feel you are missing out on anything. Let’s have more wheelchair accessible galleries where it is possible to get a different view of the airframe. That’s all. Where an airframe is accessible then open it up. I managed to get into Coventry’s Vulcan, up the access ladder with a struggle, and no I didn’t take my wheelchair, but surely there are ways that other airframes may be accessible without hacking them to pieces. Even if only to get an alternative view.

“It’s worth pointing out that being in a wheel chair isn’t
a way of restricting people.”

What a ridiculous statement to make. Of course it’s restrictive. How can you possibly think it not? Sit in a wheelchair and gain access to the upstairs of a building with no lift. Enter a public building up a flight of six steps with no assistance. We’ll make it simpler shall we? Duxford have very kindly provided ramps or slopes down to their hangars. Great. You try pushing yourself back up unless you’ve got arms like Schwarzenegger. Other obstacles such as doors which open out towards you are a work of art to manage. I couldn’t manage to walk through the Sunderland exhibit now. I’d like to see it again, can you arrange that for me? If I want to go swimming I have to travel miles to a baths that has level access and a sloping walk/stagger in pool. No, I see now, it’s not restrictive at all is it?

“I have an acqaintance who has flown the Atlantic a couple of times and flown to Australia.
He has flown fire bombers on ‘ops’ and indeed been in the right
hand seat of a 757 from memory. All of this once he gets out of his wheels. I have no doubt that at some stage in the future he will fly a warbird .”

And this relates to me in what way? I’m genuinely pleased for your friend. Who knows, in a few years time when I have probably experienced some level of amputation, when I have started to lose feeling in my other extremities, when my sight has deteriorated to the extent that I can no longer read, perhaps I’ll be able to do that.

“Whilst I am sure you will point out the disadvantages of being in a wheelchair….. “

What’s the point? You certainly aren’t going to listen are you?

“how does it compare with someone who cannot see but can only dream a Spitfire or a person who cannot hear the crackle of a Merlin at full throttle?”

My doctors suggest I should be able to answer the first part of your question in fifteen to twenty years time, if I’m lucky.

Regards,

kev35

To all.

I feel I owe you all an apology. I should have been able to express myself better on the topic of disabled access but I can see my objectivity went out of the window. As most of you know I am passionate about my interest but this didn’t come across in the way I intended it to. I should know better than to allow myself to ‘vent my spleen’ in such a fashion, and for that I apologise.

I firmly believed that I had come to terms with my disability and its progressive nature. I thought I was coping well. I now realise that the issue of disabled access as it relates to this topic has made me realise just how much I will miss out on in the future. This made me angry and that anger was misdirected.

I was going to say that I feel I am among friends here, but that’s not true. I know I am among friends. And for that I am truly grateful.

Regards,

kev35

I fear this topic is becoming too emotive for me to participate in objectively, therefore I will withdraw. I apologise in advance if I have offended anyone else.

Regards,

kev35

David.

“Kev – It’s carrot and stick – ‘we either section the Shackleton so
people can have access or she is saucepans’
Another one ‘we either get the money to fly her or she is reduced to produce'”

Or, you could leave her as she is for the next few years and have this debate again when she is in even worse condition.

“The only option we are being offered is section her – is that really
the way to treat our heritage?”

Can you absorb the cost of any other alternative?

Now, this is where I have a problem. I concede you have far superior knowledge of the preservation movement than I have, I respect your views and always look forward to and read your posts with interest. Then you write this….

“Regards being ‘disadvantaged’ – in terms of race or gender well thats understandable but did RJ Mitchell act illegally when he designed the Spitfire without wheelchair access?”

Are you really trying to be obtuse or do you just want to be patronising? When have I ever suggested anything like that? I’ve made enough posts on this forum that you might realise by now how passionate I am about those who have fought and died in the service of their country and you come out with this? Have you read anything I have written tonight?

“Therefore I applaud Duxford’s efforts to improve the situation in this area providing it is done sympathetically towards both the airframe and the disabled visitor.”

I am not asking for access to everything and would be appalled if a Spitfire was sectioned for this purpose. I just think a little more consideration and thought needs to be given to how displays are presented. Spend a day visiting your favourite museum in a wheelchair and see how much you miss. Conversely, see how much you learn from the experience, both good and bad. I also think more interactivity is required. Most of the younger generations today accept interactivity, through computers, games and gadgets as a part of everyday life. If interactivity of some exhibits encourages more youngsters to take an interest in historic aviation that can only be a good thing. It is they who must preserve our ‘heritage’ in future.

“We cannot rewrite history and nor should we – every effort should be made to make access available to all but lets accept the fact these fighting machines were designed to shoot ,bomb and strafe rather than as interactive devices.”

Yes, this is true. But the exhibits could be linked to other audio or video facilities to help tell the story.

I realise I’m probably not explaining this in the clear terms that I see it in my head, so I’ll leave it there for now.

Regards,

kev35

Arthur,

a nice recipe indeed. But I think you should delete it. Some mindless little tw&t is bound to give it a go and end up hurting someone.

Regards,

kev35

I’ll shut up and get me coat then.;)

Regards,

kev35