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H_K

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  • in reply to: Franco-German next generation fighter #2094380
    H_K
    Participant

    According the information we know now, the NGF:

    2. MTOW that will be similar to Mirage IV in 1960s.
    4. Two engines of 30,000 pounds class each.

    Toan, what’s your source for the NGF’s weight and engine thrust? Thx

    H_K
    Participant

    Name one fighter that did all of those things in the 80s.
    Closest is probably the F-18. Which is is a good choice.

    F/A-18 is a good choice, but I was thinking of the F-4 Phantom and Mirage F1E actually. True multirole aircraft in the early 80s.

    H_K
    Participant

    FBW don’t you see that you’re dealing in hypotheticals? By those standards why don’t I pick a tricked out F-14 or Su-27? Or an F/A-18 with Aim-54 Phoenix AAMs?

    You underestimate the amount of work required to integrate weapons to ensure accurate delivery. Per Spudman’s post for example the targeting pods were barely ready for Desert Storm, almost a decade after the start of the Strike Eagle’s development.

    Simple rule: if it wasn’t integrated, it didn’t exist. That’s the real world.

    H_K
    Participant

    This depends how you mark the introduction of the F-15. Is the F-15E separate because I regard that as a development of the F-15, which entered service in the 1970s and could probably have been ordered by a customer if such a demand existed. I was assuming F-15C and E counted as one type – F-15.

    We’re looking at specific aircraft variants that made it to a frontline squadron.

    So generic types are irrelevant, e.g. F-15A, C and E are all different. This is a more accurate reflection of reality… just too hard for example to talk about “F-16s” in generic terms. Too many evolutions over time.

    The F-15E is a great choice for the 1990s but IMHO it’s cheating to include it in the 1980s. It wasn’t fully operational, and even shortly before the Gulf War was still mostly limited to dropping dumb bombs by day, due to missing Lantirn and laser designator. It was basically irrelevant in the 80s for the short few months it was in limited squadron service.

    H_K
    Participant


    http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA398080

    Here is an overview from an Air War College paper written by an F-15C pilot. Gives a good overview of the F-15’s robust air to ground capabilities.

    “Robust”? That’s pretty barebones – basically dumb bombs and cluster munitions.

    No standoff missile, no SEAD, no runway denial munitions, no self-designation, no rocket pods, no anti-ship, no recon pod.

    There’s more to air-to-ground in the 80s than being a bomb truck from medium altitude that has to overfly enemy ground defenses…

    H_K
    Participant

    F-16 only works in a hi-lo mix… missing critical capabilities like BVR, recon, anti-ship.

    For a single fighter fleet the F/A-18 would be ideal but not available for export until the mid/late 80s. Mirage 2000 is similar. So in the early 80s I might still go with the later Mirage F1E variants…

    in reply to: Rafale 2018 Thread: Europe's best Eurocanard #2174402
    H_K
    Participant

    Seems the tranche 5 is already in the plans, and it will be “enhanced F4” (F4.2?) however it will be introduced quite late, in the 2030s!

    I must admit, this does not look good for Rafale in Finland. I doubt the F3R will be good enough for the Finns…

    No you misunderstand. Those T5 F4.2 deliveries will start in ~2026 and stretch through “the 2030 horizon”, which could mean anything from 2028 to 2030 depending on export orders. Follow-on orders are also likely after 2025 as part of the next 5-year program.

    This is excellent news for Rafale as it nicely sets up continued production beyond 2030, likely in Rafale MLU form.

    in reply to: Philippine Air Force Horizon 2 Project #2175332
    H_K
    Participant

    Mirage 2000C might be an option. The last French ones are retiring next year. Should be 12-24 flyable ones available with 2,500+ hours left. Good for 10-15 years.

    New radar and AAMs needed. Similar to the Moroccan Mirage F1 upgrade (which only cost ~$15M each), but much less work required I could be very cheap. Plenty of spares available and no support issues with hundreds still flying.

    Overall not a bad option for any country looking for a cheap interceptor equal/superior to F-16 and Gripen. Also comes with some ground attack capabilities.

    H_K
    Participant

    The Gnat seems to have performed well in Indian service against Pakistan’s Sabres. It served alongside Hunters and Mystère IVs so the Indians must have had some good points of comparison.

    Why was it a dud for the Finns? (Besides being basically obsolete by the time it entered service in the late 50s)

    H_K
    Participant

    The F-100A was in squadron service in 1954 (thought not yet IOC). It was the biggest, most powerful fighter available… by all rights should be a top pick.

    However seems like it had tons of issues and wasn’t particularly liked or even ready for combat?

    H_K
    Participant

    Not sure I would want a gunless F-4, so the Mirage III would probably be my choice. Powerful guns and 2 IR missiles, great. As an allrounder probably better than the F-104 which would be my second choice.

    What about the F-8E? I hesitate between that and the Mirage III. The F-8E is larger/more expensive, but has a good avionics fit and more range.

    H_K
    Participant

    I think his general points are OK (importance of sortie generation, visual stealth, reliability, persistence etc). However his translation to real world aircraft is extremely biased and uninformed.

    Based on his criteria, the Mirage III should have ranked highly relative to any J79 fighter (F-104, F-4 etc). Simple, low maintenance, bulletproof, smokeless engine. Plus very stable gun platform and effective guns.

    The Draaken should have rated lower.

    The F-5´s twin engines and 20mm guns were nothing to write home about. The F-5E was much improved, but compared to a contemporary Mirage F1 was still a very compromised platform.

    H_K
    Participant

    Not available for export, or just not exported? The title said any 1960s fighter, I took that to mean any fighter operational in the 1960s.

    By your standards then the F-16 is a 1970s fighter (delivered 1978, squadron service 1979).

    As far as I’m concerned the F-16 is 1980s, and the F-4E is 1970s. The F-4B/C are what was available for most of the 1960s.

    H_K
    Participant

    F-4E. Despite its many flaws, the F-4 proved to be the most successful fighter of that decade. Also available as CATOBAR, which would allow for spares/logistics commonalities. The E variant added an internal cannon, which fixed one of the flaws and has all sorts of interesting stuff like Combat Tree. Also a good basis for an electronic attack aircraft.

    The F-4E missed most of the 1960s so doesn’t count.

    First flight mid-1967, entered squadron service mid-1968. It was not available for export until sometime later and the maneuverability issues were only fixed in the 1970s once combat slays were added.

    H_K
    Participant

    Given combat experience of both the USN and Israelis, could hardly go wrong with either the F-8 or the Mirage III.

    Would be interesting to ask the French which was better… there must have been some pilots who practiced DACT between the Aeronavale and Air Force.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 610 total)