Now the original aviationweek analysis makes no mention of detection range, only engagement range:
Enough of blatant lies and Straw Man arguments. You may believe in your uber-waffe – history proved many time that such beliefs won’t end up good.
Not really, sometimes you have to go with the best information available. 10W is also a fairly regular output for 1 T/R module.
Speculations, speculations, speculations…
Wonder-waffe? Like SAMs that can hit insects at 300km?:highly_amused:
Another one Straw Man? Yeah, it is.
You disagreed with an analysis but haven’t been able to disprove the figures in any way and all other available info seems to back them up.
Keep saying that – it won’t change the fact that you weren’t able even to check basic facts, as real antenna size on serial MIG-31BM.
Oh and the compulsory mention of Vietnam, which is a sure indicator of the mind set we’re dealing with here.
Don’t like the history? Bad for you – it has the tendency to repeat.
No it really doesn’t refute the 1.4m diameter.
It doesn’t. No matrter what this French site thinks…and you too. Go to airforce.ru and ask the question…even in English. Right now – do it. There are real MIG-31 pilot there. http://forums.airforce.ru/matchast/3429-mig-31-a-19/
The fact of the matter is they’re quoting a NIIP pdf for that 100 square degrees but it doesn’t change the core analysis of SAM engagement range anyway. You confused detection range with engagement range. The analysis stated ‘engagement range’ and you claimed it was wrong based on a comparison with the ‘detection range’ of the Irbis-E.
They’re not quoting anyone. They’re just sucking their finger and suck out of it these “cool stories”.
Either way we have several calculations available that prove you wrong and the analysis ball park.
1. Detection range: [(1000/20)^(1/4)]x26.6km = 71km, OR [(1000/20)^(1/4)]x30km = 80km
2. http://thediplomat.com/2014/08/the-f-35-vs-the-vhf-threat/
Detection range: [(1000/380)^(1/4)]x50km = 64km, [(1000/380)^(1/4)]x60km = 76km
3. Engagement range: [(1000/250)^(1/4)]x13km = 18.4km (based on larger RCS F-117, with no EW, but we’ll assume that is counteracted by having better radar processing)
Fantasies….yeah. :rolleyes: Right from the strat, you’re basing on the wrong figures. Just like with Zaslon.
So we see detection range falling out at 64-80km and engagement range coming out circa 20km, which is exactly what the aviationweek analysis projected.
You see what you want to see – super-duper-uber-waffe.
Except this story came from an interview with the SA-3 operator.
Yeah, another one “true story”. Sure.
SAM producers trying to sell their gear. Yeah everybody, it’ll shoot down Raptors at 600km. Ignore what Sukhoi are doing, stealth is useless.:eagerness:
And again, Straw Man. No need to demonstrate your weakness with such a false thesis.
I believe the F-22s are already in Syria.
And?!…Don’t see them trying to check the ability of S-400 to destroy them.
Nope, you’re hugely – and I can’t state ‘hugely’ enough – deluded if you think an S-X00 is going to detect a Raptor before the Raptor detects it. It’s scientifically and mathematically impossible.
Raptor may detect whatever he wants. It’s a nature of signals. But ability to detect something doesn’t mean the ability to destroy it and not to be destroyed by it. That’s why US and Israel are constantly screaming against S-300/400 sales to Iran, China, etc.
So far you have exactly zero sources official or unofficial
In other words – i was right, you aren’t able to provide any reliable source on APG-77 specs. Ok, got it.
aside from yourself and your inexplicable distrust and dislike of stealth technology.
Another one Straw man argument. Where i expressed dislike towards stealth technology? I just don’t see it as some wonder-waffe, in contrast to you and some other adepts of “invisible and invincible stealth”. Reminds me Vietnam era hype. Ended up with thousands of planes lost.
I don’t know what you think your source says or how you think it backs up your claims but it doesn’t and getting back to the original argumentative post you made….
It does. You just can’t admit it. As well as you can’t admit you confused experimental Zaslon-M on experimental MIG-31M with upgraded Zaslon at MIG-31BM in RuAF service.
All of this is irrelevant to the SAM range analysis, which works equally well even if the range isn’t for narrow scan. However, even Russian wikipedia makes mention of the ‘100 square degrees’, which to me means 10deg x 10deg, and seems to reference a since removed niip pdf. Also says 150km ‘Dogon’, lost in translation.
Wikipedia…
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D1%83-35
Nope, the same article mentions an export designation but does not state that the spec is for the export version, nor that there are two specs, and nor does any source. That’s mere assertion on your part.
Again, that’s only your assertion. The only evidence is of a WVR shootdown, which in no way proves a vulnerability in stealth besides what was obvious, i.e. not stealthy WVR.
So it sounds as if the operator had tried twice to lock it beforehand but it was too far away. I rest my case. Nothing to do with missile range.
It sounds like another one “true story”. There are many of them and each declaring itself just like that – true story.
As is most of your posts regarding what is an isn’t right, e.g. your disbelief of RCS figures.
There’re RCS figures from SAM producers and military. Not some cheap advertising in the media like CNN or FOX.
Your claims about SAMs being able to lock F-22/35s at longer distances than assessed from the available numbers. In fact not one thing you’ve said has a thread of logic or proof to it.
Than come to Syria with your F-22/35 and check. LOL
I just gave a source above, which comes directly from an interview with the SAM operator. Now where’s your evidence that these SAMs can lock stealth aircraft well outside optical range?
I don’t see any direct words from operator – only journalists statements. In other words – speculations.
It’s actually pretty quick and easy scanning lots of ground with a modern electronically scanned array, especially when satellite surveillance has already told you where to look and given that there’s an S-300 system at Nellis AFB, I think they know exactly what to look for too. As regards pop-up threats, yes I’m aware, but you wouldn’t deploy a large SAM like an S-300/400/500 for that, you would employ something like a BUK/Tor/Pantsir in the regions between S-X00 coverage and have them pop-up on the command of the larger SAM radar, except with stealth aircraft, the large SAM radar won’t be able to see them in those gaps, so the system falls apart.
You’re sooo deluded.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker-Radars.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/APG-77…unsourced, arbitrary denials.
…ditto
So, you have nothing better than Wiki and funny guy Carlo Copp? Just as i thought – no official sources.
All those sources tell me is that the -M version is indeed bigger than the -A and that the diameter is 1.4m, which is what I said. You’re arguing with me by proving I’m right, which is a very odd tactic to say the least.
It’s very strange that your “nice” sources didn’t tell you that 1,4m antenna was on Zaslon-M installed at MIG-31M. While MIG-31BM retained antenna from original Zaslon. I think your sources suck very-very hard.
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/mig31bm.html
It actually says very little. They make no mention of a domestic variant having 400km range anywhere on their site, nor do they state that the 350km is export only.
It says index Sh135E, which in turn syas it’s an Export version. End of story.
Every source states 13km for the shoot down, which is something an A-10 with sidewinders on the rails could easily manage with no radar, especially against a non-evasive target with no EW. So unless you think a sidewinder equipped A-10 or R-73 equipped Su-25T makes a good air defence solution this incident is in no way a rebuttal of the effectiveness of stealth. Much closer and a ZSU-23-4 could have shot it down.
What this has to do with a fact that S-125 is limited by its missile range, not radar? Straw man argument?
Not my speculation:
Your or not – it’s still a speculation.
You have to admit that given the distance, it would have been well within the realms of optical designation and a 60kg proximity-fused blast fragmentation warhead wouldn’t have to get particularly close for a kill. And that’s why this example is silly, radar or not, a radar wouldn’t be needed at that kind of range… for any aircraft, so it makes a rather silly anti-stealth radar case.
You have to admit you have no facts that S-125 was limited by its radar.
Well:
a) If not emitting it isn’t very useful.
b) I stand by the statement. An S-300 launcher has a huge RCS, probably not far short of that of a barn, or even a small farm if you take the complex in total (all units) and a fast scanning AESA radar would be very capable of detecting such a target from a long way off, as would passing satellites.
Many things on the ground has a huge RCS. If you didn’t know that. You really don’t realise how complicated radar picture of the ground and how hard to find something specific on it, especially in the area of thousands of sq.km. Speaking about not emmiting SAMs – ever heard about SAM-ambushes? I guess not. Ask Zoltan – he knows how “useless” not emmiting SAM is. :rolleyes:
Speculation based on a modern AESA of equal power and another good PESA radar with a 56% larger diameter than the Irbis-E.
I’ve asked for official specs of ANAPG-77, including its power characteristics. Still waiting for them.
The source clearly states it as 1.4m, and here are other sources saying the same. It’s also fundametally obvious that the MiG-31 has a far bigger aperture.
Your source tells pure and obvious bull****. That’s why i said i’m pretty sceptical towards Western sources. Its author don’t know **** about subject he’s writing about. MIG-31M was a very different plane, in comparison to original MIG-31, with a much larger nose cone, changed specially for the bigger antenna of the old Zaslon-M. Person who isn’t aware even of this well known fact – can’t be taken seriously.
Baseless? I cited a source and note that this is for the -A version, not the -M.
Sorry, but you cited a bull****.
I have checked the facts, please cite some sources rather than just blind denials.
No, you didn’t. Here are three respected Russian sourcers. All of them are saying “MIG-31M had larger nose cone to fit larger Zaslon-M antenna”.
http://testpilot.ru/russia/mikoyan/mig/31/m/mig31m.htm
http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-651.html
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/mig31m.html
It’s very sad, that you didn’t know that MIG-31M was completely different plane, than original MIG-31.
Source mentions nothing of export version.
Really?! Coz index Sh135E says it all.
You can repeat it as much as you like but that doesn’t make it so. The fact is that the F-117 was WVR at the time it could be engaged by X-Band radar. This source states that lock was attained at 13km, so the range of the missile is moot.
It’s obvious, already, that you’re using pretty bad and unreliable sources – full of misinformation. Story with Zaslon-M is a nice example.
It’s also possible that radar lock wasn’t even used at that range.
Really?! So, you’ve change one speculation on another?!
Erm… a huge truck and radar emitting at 1MW and subject to 1/R^2 law is harder to detect than a passive stealth aircraft that’s subject to 1/R^4 law.:highly_amused: Chances are satellites have already pinpointed the large double-digit SAM positions prior to the strike anyway.
Let me refresh you memory, then…
Now a 1MW radar can be detected from a long, long way away and even when not emitting, the system isn’t remotely stealthy.
If you think it’s easy to find something in the area of thousands sq.kilometers, well…you’re delusioned one.
S, not S-E. S-E is an export model.
The ‘narrow scan’ is concluded from the fact that an APG-77 with equal power only manages 200km for 1m^2.
It’s not a fact – just your speculation. BTW, can you provide any official source on APG-77 specs, including peak-power? I guess you can’t, which makes your speculations even more speculative.
The Irbis-E is 900mm in diameter, whereas the Zaslon-M is 1400mm in diamater.
You really think Zaslon-M on upgraded MIG-31BM is equipped with antenna of 1,4m diameter??? 😮 You do realise that 1,4m was an old version of Zaslon-M, designed for MIG-31M? New Zaslon-M on MIG-31BM has the same 1,1m antenna, as that one on original MIG-31.
Now the power is actually far less important than the diameter. That 56% increase in diameter gives a 142% increase in gain and a 56% increase in range. The 4 fold increase in power would only give a 41% increase in range, except the figure you quoted is wrong for several reasons.
One more cool story, yeah.
The average power of a Zaslon-A is 2.5kW but with a 25% duty cycle, giving 10kW peak power.
Another one baseless speculation…
Now that’s a -A not a -M. Now according to Combat Aircraft July 2015, the detection range of the Zaslon-M is twice that of a Zaslon-A and diameter was increase from 1.1m to 1.4m. Now the change in diameter only equates to a 27% range improvement on its own.
Stop repeating this misconception. Check the facts.
You use 400km in your calculation but the manufacturer quotes 350km for 3m^2, which is what I used. That aside 26km or 30km is functionally useless, especially when that’s detection only.
You do eralise its specs foe export version, right?! Coz for our domestic version Beliy declared 400km.
Well actually it depends what version of the SA-3 it was. It’s far more likely to have been a Volna-M given the date. Most sources also quote the slant range at 25km.
I repeat it again – S-125 was limited by its missiles range. Not radar. Your statement about radar is just another one baseless speculation.
Well err, if you think a huge truck and a 1MW radar are stealthy, good luck with that.
I think you don’t realize how it’s really hard – to find something on the ground, dozens kilometers away.
Err i think we are talkin about zaslon ?
I think you were talking about relation between the average and peak power. I gave an example of such relation. And i dunno where these 10kW came from and furthermore, i’m pretty skeptical towards Western sources when it comes to Russian equipment.
Anyway, peak-power of Zaslon is nowhere near to peak-power of Irbis. Case closed.
i want to ask Russian speaking users if it is PAK-DA wind tunnel test model in the journal at page 68, thanks.?
http://jurnali-online.ru/aviaciya-i-kosmos/krylya-rodiny-11-12-noyabr-dekabr-2015.html
Text under the photo says so…but of course it’s not, IMO. Most probably, it’s one of already dismissed configurations of PAK DA or some abstract scientific/civilian project. Knowing our military industry, nobody will show such a sensitive project at so early stage.
Really ? thought it’s 10 kW given that the average power is 2.5 kW. Pulse doppler radar typically operates at duty cycle of 15-25% To prevent/reduce effect of eclipsing.
5 kW peak means it has 50% duty cycle. that’s FMICW realm
Janes on the AN/APG-71:
Type
I/low J-band (8 to 12 GHz) fire-control radar.
Description
The AN/APG-71 is an upgraded version of the radar portion of the AN/AWG-9 airborne weapon control system (see separate entry) to satisfy US Navy air superiority requirements for its F-14D Tomcats. It is essentially a digital version of the AN/AWG-9, the key elements in the upgrade being a fully programmable processor and a companion radar data processor which replace the AN/AWG-9’s four analogue processors and provide digital capability. Digital radar displays are incorporated and the system includes sophisticated electronic counter-countermeasures provisions. Detection and tracking modes have also been improved over those of the AN/AWG-9. Operational details and use are the same as for the AN/AWG-9.
Operational status
Testing of APG-71 engineering development models began in late 1986. Flight trials began in March 1988 with operational evaluation aboard the F-14D being completed during December 1990. APG-71 production (55 examples) was completed in 1993
Specifications
Frequency: I/low J-band (8-12 GHz)
Power: 500 W (average – pulse mode); 7 kW (average – pulse Doppler mode); 10 kW (peak)
Range: 213 km across a 213 km wide front
Scan rate: 80º/s (horizontal); 2 scans/s (vertical)
Tracking capacity: up to 24 targets simultaneously
Antenna: slotted planar-array
Weight: 590 kg
Volume: 0.78 m3
Contractor Hughes Aircraft Company
Radar Systems, El Segundo, California.
Who said a 20kW class radar can see it sooner? The quoted 3m^2 target range for the Irbis-E is on a very narrow sweep and even at that it’s a dubious claim at best.
Where did you get this bold part? Coz CEO of NIIP said nothing about scan mode.
For comparison the huge Zaslon-M on MiG-31s only claims 200km for the same target on a full sweep.
For comparison, Zaslon’s peak-power is only 5kW while diameter of antenna is only slightly bigger than antenna of Irbis.
It also doesn’t follow that the radar equation applies simplistically wrt a such a huge reduction in RCS but even if it did, 30,000^(1/4) = 13.16. 350/13.16 = 26.6km for detection only.
Well, well, well…so, we have another one adept of 0,000001sqm *********? Ok, LOL.
D2=D1/(RCS1/RCS2)^0.25
RCS2=1sqm – 400/(3/1)^0.25=304 км
RCS2=0.1sqm – 400/(3/0.1)^0.25=171 км
RCS2=0.01sqm – 400/(3/0.01)^0.25=96 км
RCS2=0.001sqm – 400/(3/0.001)^0.25=54 км
RCS2=0.0001sqm – 400/(3/0.0001)^0.25=30.4 км
That’s on a narrow angle sweep and even then such a range is useless because IRST will see it before then. Factor in for actual targeting/engagement range and you’re basically WVR by that stage, making the radar functionally useless. Now detection range for an S-400 radar may be circa 70-80km (26.6 /[ [1000/20]^[1/4] ]) but the article is saying that actual engagement range is around 21km.
Only if you believe in 0,00000000zerozerozerro1 bull****.
Now we know the F-117 was engaged by the SA-3 at 13km. That radar was around 250kW.
FYI information, S-125 is restricted by missiles range, not radar. Maximum range of the missile 5V27(V-601P) is….17km.
So….
So, you’re completely wrong in your ‘analysis’.
Now a 1MW radar can be detected from a long, long way away and even when not emitting, the system isn’t remotely stealthy.
Good luck with that, yeah.
Su-24 and MIG-31 ground operations in 1080@50fps
Iran will make it happen
Unlikely. Iran has pretty strong ties with China, which makes PAK FA sale to Iran very dangerous for both, Russia and India. Su-35 is the best what Iran may get from us in foreseable future.
But at what range?