FalconDudeBecause it’s off-topic as 50% of this topic’s posts?
What I’m looking for in a PAK-FA topic :
– PAK-FA’s news,
– PAK-FA’s pictures.
So you want a separate thread for just news (boring most of the time) and photos, and another one for all the “pointless” discussions? One is too much for the sorting abilities of some people to go through, right?
FalconDudeI don’t want to bother you with my dear Rafale and pollute topic, but it is starting cooperation flights with nEUROn within months.
My question is what would be more Xth Gen : F-35 or a Gripen/Rafale/EFT couple with a ultra stealthy UCAS?Btw, Jay, Canada was invited to drop into french part of FCAS in cas they’d select Rafale…
Well, let’s not forget that the rafale is also really expensive.
FalconDudeI doubt exercises would provide an “answer” that you seek on the F-35. The USAF is tight lipped about exercises (with the infamous exception of the Red Flag leak), so is the UK. The Armee’de l’air has had it’s fair share of “leaks” about the performance of the Rafale in exercises, which probably does not endear them to other participating nations. The point of exercises, which seems to be lost on some in the professional and enthusiast world, is not to prove who’s aircraft is “better”, but to prepare for a variety of missions, develop tactics, and skills.
No doubt, however planes fly common sorties, common briefings, partial or full equipment capabilities are revealed and some times encouraged by the (commercial world) spirit of cooperation. In red flag for example combined packages of f-16s and F-15s provide to nations without f-15s an insight into its actual capabilities. Sometimes pilots are invited over to fly with the type, (hard in this case but still) you see where I am going with this..
FalconDudeThe cost of the F-35A is getting close to that of 4.5 gen fighters. Under these conditions customers will probably prefer the F-35, except for cases like small air forces focused more on defense, which might prefer the grippen probably.
The CPFH will decrease when the F-35 gets more maturity. Basing long term estimates on data from the current fleet is rather hazardous.
The truth of the matter is close. In a few years, operators outside the US will be flying the first few true examples. Moreover, other customers will not rely only on LM presentations, they will be able to go and fly one. Moreover, they will take part in common NATO exercises against the other fighters. Then we will know everything we need to know. I think it’s going to tank, but I could be wrong.
FalconDude[QUOTE=TomcatViP;2180728]
How can something raise when it’s going down? (minus 3 or 4 % last buy)
Interesting question.
However, it may be something that someone may answer. Quite simply let us find what the cost of the overall program has been so far. Say up to 2014 and then divide with the number of planes LM is planning to sell to the partners only! Add to that marginal profit. See if it works out.
It doesn’t matter if the plane gets cheaper in the future (or any product) to produce. A company needs to make back the money it spent on R&D. Now obviously this is a different case since so much of that cost was paid for by the … US taxpayer.
FalconDudeHow do we know anything about what performance and qualities it offers?
I see people assuming all these things about the J-31, based on what?
A generic stealth shape?Given the mild success in Chinese fighter exports prior to this thing, my expectations are accordingly low.
Two RD-33 engines is not lightweight either, so barring really slashed costs (and accordingly performance that might not be so F-35 competing) I am not sure how affordable it really will be.
If this thing flies as good as the MiG-29 and has comparable RCS to the f-35 …it is the bomb y’all
FalconDudeI can see that……..any aircraft that has issue enough NOT to be able to fly to said “repair facilities”, even if it is in the same country….will be the PARAMOUNT in difficulty in transportation…….not like an F35 will just sit on a transport trailer…..as I see this….THIS could be a major issue…potentially having numbers of F35’s just sitting, damaged or broken and no way to get them fixed or airborne……seems to me that ANY Nation / Airforce Operating the F35 should be able to repair/replace parts, maintain them without “help” from any outside sources……is that NOT the way it has been done for eons?…..so now everything needs to change?…to become reliant on others for the Airforce’s repair needs?……I cringe when I even think about the logistics that will be required to simply get broken F35’s to a repair facility……how can it be done in an even remotely cost effective manner?…
The theory is that whilst before AirForces had to maintain specialised repair centres for their fleets (up to structural damage level-this was always a go home type of damage) which required tooling, manuals, seminars, training, logistic support for parts, stocks, scheduling, hangars, infrastructure, real estate, buildings, barracks, railway connections, fuel depots, air defences, etc etc etc… NOW you simply sent the plane back to one of the -very few- designated centres and pay for the repair only.
FalconDudeFD, AL-31F (and derivatives) are 4 -stage LPC & 9 -stage HPC.
Nice find JSTCVW09CD, btw.
Ahhhhhhhhh, thanks, I am on board now.
FalconDude117 Engine: 3 LPC, 7 HPC, 1 HPT and 1 LPT.
If anyone asks why 117 is 150kg less than AL-31F in DRY WEIGHT, the pic. below shows why.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]232902[/ATTACH]
Don’t see it. Please elaborate
FalconDudeYou need to practice your Google-Fu more… The Italian FACO went into production and had their first F135 delivered earlier this year.
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=de2ca739-36d5-44d8-a9e2-6276d35df7baHere is a F-35 in production there:
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http://breakingdefense.com/2013/11/lessons-learned-at-cameri-italys-f-35-hq-implications-for-asia/The Wing Production facility at the FACO is already making parts that have flown in production F-35s
https://www.f35.com/news/detail/alenia-aermacchi-made-wing-components-make-first-f-35-flightNobody is “supposed to” have anything, that’s the point of competition.
If you read the supporting urls I provided, you would have noticed this:
So, to directly answer your question, If any two countries that both have F-35s have a sour relationship, there will be other centers in the region that can provide parts, support, etc.
And all of those cost more to maintain (in relation to their acquisition cost) because every country had to do every repair. The JPO partners are well aware of this history of sustainment costs which is why they came up with the F-35’s Global Sustainment Model.
Hey my Google fu may not be the best, but we are not talking about fabrication, we are talking about support. A better argument on your part would have been to say that it is too early which I accept. I just don’t share your optimism.
As for the rest, I don’t know… We’ll have to wait and see. I don’t see more than one full centre in Europe to be honest …
FalconDudeLet me introduce you to a few of them.
Italian FACO– It is the largest foreign facility as it will work on multiple parts of the F-35 and handle assembly.
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[ATTACH=CONFIG]232885[/ATTACH]Japan is building a FACO too.
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20130621/DEFREG03/306210017/Lockheed-Mitsubishi-Sign-F-35-FACO-DealTurkey is building an engine center
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-pratt–whitney-agree-on-f-35-engine-center.aspx?pageID=238&nID=66776&NewsCatID=345—————Here is more info on how Global Sustainment will work———–
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Opening up the world market
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140706/DEFREG02/307060009/Global-Competition-Opens-F-35-Sustainment-Deals19 New foreign facilities worldwide in the next 5 years
http://www.defensedaily.com/dod-accelerating-global-f-35-sustainment-network-bogdan-says-2/Eurpean Support and Training
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20130906/DEFREG01/309060008/Britain-Norway-Working-F-35-Support-Training-Collaboration-AgreementBecause you want to keep your costs under control.
How is that different than having to buy parts from France, the UK/Spain/Germany, or Sweden when buying the Rafale, Eurofighter, or Gripen?
They don’t exist yet. Italy’s centre is just a building last I heard. Also Turkey was not supposed to have a centre. Which brings us to the other thing I was saying thanks for bringing up Turkey. Turkey and Greece have tenuous relationships at best, so if in the future both have F-35s (or Romania and Bulgaria similarly) will have to use Turkey’s centre for repairs ?? How will that work?
Previously operators of F-16s had an increased level of repair ability purchased with the plane. So were Mirage users and F-4 users. All of the above planes needed to go “back home” only for structural damages and avionics upgrades. Not for trivial maintenance and upkeep.
FalconDudeMan that looks fat !!
FalconDudeKeep in mind that the worldwide support & logistics plan means that these “black boxes” will be maintained at different facilities around the world. This is one of the key cost savings measures in the O&S chain. Without it, you would have each country having to set up shops, train personnel, etc to deal with almost every aspect of sustainment. As it stands now, each level of service is being done at several locations worldwide and those centers will compete for the worldwide work.
These facilities do not exist yet. And for example why I (as an X nationality) should have to send my “broken” plane (or parts of) to some Y country to get fixed. Also what If I am for some reason facing a threat the others are not facing? Why should I trust the X country to give priority to my planes and not those of other paying customers who might actually have a vested interest with my “enemy” ?
and please do not say NATO .. the UK was a NATO member but went to war alone with Argentina for example.
FalconDudeA while ago I had posted a question in relation to no images of the T-50 flying with an RCS enhancing device yet. This was following some photos of the J-21 seen with what could be a Luneberg lens.
Not keeping up with the J-20 developments, I recently saw that the plane has some redesign features and things like the actuator housings in the wings for example have been reduced in size.
There have been no similar modifications to the T-50 whatsoever (some minors at the base of the tail irc).
Isn’t that interesting?
FalconDudeActually, no the ALIS logistics system is still having issues. Now here is something tangible and relevant to complain about with the F-35. The self monitoring HUMS is not integrated with ALIS yet. That is a major hurtle and headache in the making.
No to which bit of my comment. Because as far as I know this was the case just a couple of months ago.
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