What has changed in the 20 years since that report: computing power that would allow for accurate modeling and design of a LO aircraft, RAM for starters. No one would disagree with your examples having the best overall shaping for RCS : RQ-180, Neuron, etc. What I disagree with is Obligatory’s constant, incorrect, conclusion that maneuverability and RCS are mutually exclusive. And I for one, get tired of watching you sniper at anyone’s posts that are remotely positive toward the F-35, then defend or “interpret” Obligatory’s biased declarations that have no basis in fact.

FBW at this point I would like to point out, that when the RCS “curiosities” of the T-50 were being discussed the use of RAM was dismissed as “pixie dust”. We can’t have it both ways.

At this stage personally I am more concerned with the enormous cost of this programme. Not its performance. I am willing to wait and see how the F-35 performs as a flying machine. Fair enough.

I don’t have to wait to discuss how enormously expensive this programme has been though and how it affects more than the US forces.

They are not worried about conserving the missile life anymore > new weapons deliveries are finally incoming (makes sense with all the new birds).

Makes sense.
I am puzzled though, isn’t R-27 a lower performing missile compared to the R-77? Why was it not inducted into service?

3. None of this has any bearing on the debate on this thread, because you have offered no explanation on how any alternative to the F-35 (Rafale, EF, SH, Gripen, F-15) would fare better in same situation.

I never said they would nor was it my intention. My logic has issues with the F-35 project and its development. I do not consider any of these planes you mentioned as an alternative nor have I made any indication that I do. It was not even part of my starting point. If your contributions to the thread were solely (or partially) concerned with that then sorry, I probably missed that bit.

furthermore I thought this thread was F-35 generic, not if any of the other western planes is a valid alternative.

That is the point. The debate on thread was about whether the F-35 should be selected by countries like Canada, Norway, Australia (or even India if we get around to it), instead of mid-rung alternatives like the Eurofighter, Rafale & Super Hornet, or the Gripen E at the lower end.

Ok, I see where you are coming from. My working assumption was to focus on the F-35 marketed selling points and take it from there..

Please do.

Gladly. It is a bit long though so bear with me if you are kind enough.

One of the strong selling points of the F-35 put forward by LM is that with the VLO characteristics (unmatched as put forward in some cases) and advanced sensor suite the F-35 package will dominate the battle space with authority and will not be required to enter WVR fights -which previous fighters without its capabilities where forced to get into- and in which it might not have the kinematic performance to survive (at this stage we do not focus on how agile the F-35 is as it has been established that there are platforms that are better than it at WVR engagements in terms of kinematic performance, the F-22 being one for example)

So here comes the question, can an F-35 engage from BVR another F-35? In this question you have two possible outcomes

1. No —-Therefore the value of the F-35 against a similarly VLO adversary from BVR is practically zero and WVR engagements will be required. The implication being that IF the F-35 comes up against an “other side” design which happens to be on par in terms of VLO then the deciding factor will be the WVR engagement characteristics -kinematic performance being a crucial one. Do you disagree?

2. Yes —Therefore there is a sensor suite/missile combo that is capable of tracking and locking on to a VLO platform from BVR capable of making the kill. The implication being that again what if the “other side” comes up with a system combo on par with the one on the F-35? And this is where it gets interesting.

Of course AESA radars and various other enhancements are designed and planned but you are forgetting 2 things:

1

F-35 is marketed as the sole NATO air-force replacement, which means effectively NATO will only have the F-35 in the not so distant future (as no other plane is being developed) and LM (and fanboys) have consistently mocked the value of the EF2000 and the Rafale (and Grippen) as any sort of valuable alternatives for any sane person deciding on the structure of their air force in the medium term future and no more -highly overworked as it is- F-16s, F-18s and F-15s will be around as the F-35 is meant to actually replace them anyway.

2. The possibility of large numbers of any other western fighter being produced in the near future to receive these supposed upgrades is minimal as the EF2000 and the Rafale have faced problems with demand already. Also LM is not particularly willing to offer any significant -F-35 like capability or close- to its legacy fighter the F-16. Upgrade programs for the USAF and other countries are available to check.

On the other hand the “other side” keeps producing Su-XXs and J-XXs at an alarming rate, new air-frames that have lots of flying hours in them and which will be in a position to receive these -VLO effective sensor suite- updates if they come to life. (presumably they may already exist) alongside their 5th Generation fighter designs (T-50, J-20, J-31 etc etc)

So why is it interesting?

Because then the possibility exists that in the future there will be fleets of F-35s (which kinematically may be inferior ) coming up against not only 5th generation fighters which have both the sensor suites and kinematic performance to engage them effectively but also scores of 4.5gen fighters that have both again the sensor suites and kinematic performance to engage them effectively but lack the VLO characteristics that would bring them on par.

However you can see that whilst before a 4 plane formation of Su-30s was allegedly helpless against a 4 plane formation of F-35s now a formation of 4 Su-30s and 4 J-20s doesn’t seem so helpless, (why 8 vs 4 you may ask? well for starters now the legacy fighters can hit you and second they exist, whereas you only have a limited number of F-35s because of price and because LMs selling point -advocated by you as well I believe but I could be wrong- is that fewer F-35s can do the same job and legacy fighters are outdated and not needed)

Not to mention that the amount of Ammo those 8 planes carry is quite a lot more than what you are carrying, and now all of a sudden the “silent killer” has become involved into a war of attrition it can not afford.

They are being developed by the other side. (The ‘other side’ of course referring to the Russians and Chinese.)

Yes, I acknowledged that just above.

Any fighter can kill a VLO platform right down to the venerable MiG-21. The only variables are ‘when-you-see-it’ and ‘when-it-sees-you’.

…….

And why doesn’t it matter if these frames are easier detectable by the F-35?

I’ll address both of these in one go hopefully. That is the premise of my original question “an F-35 engage from BVR another F-35?” BVR is BVR, let’s assume the minimum BVR range for the particular sensor/missile combo on the F-35 and lets call it X. Let’s now assume for the sake of our work that the same X exists for the “other side”. Now in a mix formation of 5th and 4-4.5 gen “other side” formation the legacy design fighters will be detected -again for arguments sake lets say 2X- but your weapons may or may not be effective at that 2X range. Now lets use the scenario in favor and assume your weapons are effective at 2X range. You take shots and you immediately do two things :

1. Become known to the 5th gen fighters that detect your missile launches
2. Reduce your available ammo significantly

meanwhile we already know that “other side” 4-4.5 gen fighters have the kinematic performance to evade your shots so some of them may not even be kills anyway.

You don’t take shots and you risk bringing in to an X range (which you are detectable by both the 5th and legacy fighters sensors) twice as many weapons and twice as many planes as you …

The only thing you can do is retreat before you expose yourself to unfavorable engagement conditions and that is already a mission kill for you.

that is why it doesn’t matter if these frames are easier to detect by the F-35.

LM doesn’t have a monopoly over the technologies in question and most older platforms are undergoing upgrades (or have them available) – Rafale F3R, EF T3 (with P2E & P3E), ‘Advanced’ SH, Gripen ‘NG’.

I am not saying it does. But the monopoly it enjoys in currently equipping NATO with the single US designed air frame for the foreseeable future is inherently dangerous for any upgrades and technology transfers.

Why do you suppose the Russians and Chinese are developing clean-sheet VLO designs (with the Japanese, Korean, Indians, Turkish preparing to follow) instead of merely upgrading their older models with new sensors?

First. The Japanese are somewhat different as they have the industrial might to pull this off. The Koreans and Turks are essentially talking about the same plane but I doubt they have combined the financial might to develop such a plane. Remember that one of the “winning” arguments of the F-35 crowd is that “developing a 5th gen fighter isn’t cheap”.

The indians have hitched the russian wagon and hope to reap benefits from it.

As for the reason they are doing it? Quite honestly the reasons are different for each one of them. But I think this is for another discussion.

R-77 was never accepted into VVS, AFAIK.

Must have missed that, so what is the standard VVS medium/long range missile?

Why does it have the same DSI, the same squared body, the same nose line, a similar transition btw rectangular central body end rear rounded twin engine cowling ?

The same as what?

What really happens when a pair of opposing F-35s meet is that each self-annihilates in the manner of a matter-antimatter reaction but, instead of releasing energy as radiation, dollar bills float down from the sky where they are quickly collected by undocumented immigrants and used to buy heroin and social security numbers.

Respect…….