Who said ‘simply’? Or only, or anything similar. Read what I’ve written, & stop projecting your own interpretations onto it.

Again, read what I wrote. You referred to the Greek population of Smyrna, not the combined total Greek & Armenian populations of the Middle East, the Ottoman Empire, or any other area, & I replied directly to your ludicrous claim. My figure is the population of the vilayet which included Smyrna (& much more), & is not disputed. The population of Greece (also not disputed) was about 5 million.

I specifically referred to the sad fate of the Armenians. I pointed to it as an example of how Turkey distorts its own history, as Greece does its history. But somehow, you completely missed that, as you show with this –

Then you start forming opinions about me for which you have no evidence – again.

I’m happy to drop it (I didn’t start it: you did, with that silly claim that Greece would cease to exist almost immediately if it let down its guard against Turkey), but I’d like it to end with an apology from you for, or at least an acknowledgement by you of, your misrepresentation of my arguments & opinions, & recognition by you that you’ve got your facts wrong, pretty consistently.

PS. I’ve been to Armenia – or what was Armenia, inside Turkey – and visited some of the fine old churches there, and met some of the Armenians who still live there, & in Istanbul. Don’t you dare misrepresent my knowledge & opinions about Armenia!

You have misrepresented what I’ve said, you have invented (reprehensible) opinions for me, & you have accused me of getting facts wrong when if you’d done any checking at all you’d know I was right. Overall, you have argued dishonestly, & tried to malign me. Is this normal, for you?

I don’t feel I was arguing dishonestly nor did I try to malign you. Whichever line one chooses to follow it is their prerogative.

For starters though as you stated, you consider my original argument silly and your arguments to back that up are that Greece has been on the offensive more often than the Turks. Have I got it right so far?

In which I have countered that this is the wrong way to see it as the motives for aggression were not the same.
I did accept I confused the Bulgarians with the Turks (my bad) but I didn’t get any other fact wrong, I simply don’t agree with your interpretation of them.
For example, there are sources that give a figure of almost 3 million for the near east Greeks (Skalieris, 1990, for example puts it conservatively to ~2.7 million counting only the orthodox and not converted Greeks), which you put down to about 1.5 million, if I remember correctly. The total population of Greece at the time had just (with the annex of territories) hit about 5 million.
Whose arguments do you think these numbers validate mine or yours?
The percentage swings in favour or turkish populations only if you count in armenia and turkish-kurdistan, if not, the Greeks were clearly a majority of the local population with the turks numbering at slightly below 1.8 million.
So were exactly have I gone wrong with the arguments.

You accused me of forgetting the 1897 war, but that was such a different conflict in its nature and by no means an attack on turkish lands since the battlegrounds were pretty much what half of Greece now is, populated by Greeks.
If you feel my approach misinterprets the facts, I don’t because prior to this I already acknowledged in a previous post that Greeks “invaded more”

I don’t feel I maligned you, I merely offered another version of what responses along the lines of “more times than I can count” and “blinded by Hellenistic stars” could be interpreted as.
What does that even mean by the way ? “hellenistic stars”??? I’d love to hear your comments on it.

I don’t know how you cannot see that the line you followed in your attempt to show “how Greece can be as evil as any other nation” is so the line that turkish hardliners follow. If you cannot, you may want to visit some turkish fora and have a look at what they write.

But beyond that, because you feel offended by the way I approached this, I have no problem apologising to you, god damn simple decency demands I do.

Now since I apologised, would you have a problem explaining to me (and anyone else who might care) any solid (non Greece can be as evil as anyone) reasons why my original claim is “ridiculous and /or silly”; Because I was married to a Greek for almost half my life and everyone I ever met down there as sure as hell didn’t feel that was a ridiculous fear!

I am full of virtual ears mate !

I really get sick of this, the answer on the question from “thobbes” hasn’t been given but only stupid long chit-chat about Greece and Turkey and the possible aggression between them 😡 I think you guys should start another topic. It seems indeed the French offered the Greek four Atlantique 2 aircraft with a possible buy after a period. The americans already offered to have four later model P-3’s for the Greek, who only needs to pay for the overhaul. It seems that the French offer is the most likely one.

TigerII

Did I not answer his question in one of my very first posts in this thread?
i am pretty sure I did

By calling the Imia incident a Turkish invasion of Greek soil, you show partiality. Even some of Greece’s closest friends accept that the status of that speck of land is debatable. For the record, I don’t give a damn about it.

And you told me I needed to study history! 😀

Look up the First Balkan War, & the Greco-Turkish war of 1897.

The majority of Cypriots speak Greek. There has been a strong movement for union with Greece. From independence, the Greek Cypriot armed forces were officered by Greek army regulars. There was also a Greek army contingent on the island (one of my former colleagues in Athens served in it while doing his national service). In 1973, the Greek Cypriot army overthrew the elected government of Cyprus, on orders from Athens.

Not Greek dominated? It certainly was back then!

This is nonsense. The total population of Smyrna province was about two-thirds of the population of Greece in 1910, before Greece greatly increased its population as a result of the Balkan Wars. Look it up! I keep saying this, but instead you parrot propaganda.

Greeks don’t remember it because it’s mostly been whitewashed out of history as taught in Greece. It doesn’t fit the heroic myth of the poor downtrodden Greeks fighting only for their own liberation. Similarly, the Turks have a heroic myth which excludes the barbaric treatment of the Armenians. You should never trust the version of its own history taught in any country.

There were serious attempts to put the Megali Idea into action. Why do you think the Greek army was trying to take Ankara in 1922? To liberate its non-existent Greek population? It was, & this was explicit at the time (look at the maps presented by the Greek government to the peace conference in 1919), part of a plan to annex a large part of Anatolia, which had far more Turks in it than Greeks. When the Allies refused to agree, the Greeks simply invaded the (Turkish populated) parts of their claim which hadn’t been placed under their control by the Treaty of Sevres.

BTW, maybe you should ask some Bulgarians about the Balkan Wars, & the role of Greece. The broken treaty & what they think of as a stab in the back by an erstwhile ally still rankles.

And you are not partial?
and finally …
QED

They sure do look like “beneficiaries” these days…

Nic

and slowly we’ll be next.. just matter of time.

FalconDude you will find Swerve is a long established and far less petulant member of this forum then me! At no point has he shown the slightest hint of being either Turkish or Pakistani! Even if he was in what way is that an issue?

If you want to have a discussion about the relative merits of Turkey vs Greece then why don’t you take it to the general discussion area albeit I warn it would probably a quick path to an insta-ban!

It doesn’t matter who or where you are coming from in general. On particular topics however, origins have been known to lets say alter perceptions.

I take responsibility for my share of how this has gone from Atlantiques to Greco-Turkish relations, but I couldn’t let -what I perceive as- misunderstandings and assumptions go unanswered.

[QUOTE=swerve;1999717]Untrue. There was no Turkish invasion of Greece.

When did Greece last invade Turkey? 1919-1922

Wrong again. One – and that was in response to the Greek army & its local allies overthrowing the government of Cyprus, & trying to unite it (& its Turkish minority) with Greece.

Correct. I’ve lost count.

No. See above. The attempt to forcibly incorporate a democratic ethnically mixed state into Greece – ruled at the time by a military dictatorship.

And this lot shows total ignorance. Cyprus was very different, in every way. Greece started it. You can argue (& I’d agree) that Turkey overreacted, but it certainly isn’t a precedent for a Turkish invasion of Greece. If Turkey was ever going to invade Greece, it would have been ij 1974. It didn’t happen.

The biggest beneficiaries were probably the people of Greece, BTW. They got rid of a brutal dictatorship (what’s the point of a military dictatorship which can’t even win a war?), & to stabilise their new democracy got fast-tracked into the EU , which then threw money at them for 30 years.

You are probably turkish or turkish-cypriot right ? or perhaps pakistani.

I don’t think you are being objective.

I gave you the simple facts, there were 2 balkan wars, 1 greco-turkish war, and one world war. I did not include Cyprus as you probably have.

You may want to catch up on history. But if you are turkish you are clearly missing many points that this forum is not the right one to elaborate on, such as the difference between a liberating war and an expansionist war.

It is quite funny when Turks paint Greece (or Israel) as a bully and a threatening part while at the same time (and sometimes in the same post) boast about the military capabilities of Turkey and how the same military will be used to punish those who “once” were slaves and will be again !

None the less this is beyond the point of this thread.

Much thanks to Wilhelm

If this is a HAF F1, then on the wingtip pylons it would carry an AiM-9

Falcon

When someone says something like “If Greece was to disband her military on any given Monday, it would not exist as a country by Friday the same week” who´s being irrealistic?

Cheers

it is an extreme example, which happens to be absolutely realistic, to make my point.

Did you get my point? if you did what is your argument against it? Do you feel this is never going to happen? why?

if you didn’t get my point, tell me and I will try to explain better.