Pak ThunderThis is simple. Two main things:
1. Russia does not want India to integrate their stuff with Israeli an Western stuuf without getting a huge payoff. They don’t want india to buy the Patriot PAC-3 and instead the S-300 and possibly S-400 at a huge markup. They were unhappy but went through with the Phalcon deal. They want the biggest piece of the Indian pie.
2. Russia also wants India not to buy spares for Russian systems from Poland, Romania etc. and instead buy solely though Russian consortia who of course price it at a premium rate. The IPR treaty will have language to that effect that if you put in non-russian spares, we stop service or charge a higher rate etc.
It’s likely that the Russians will cave in after a face saver because they cannot afford to lose one of their biggest buyers in India. But before that, they will extract a pound of flesh somewhere.
They already have their pound of flesh, look how much they charge India for all sorts of kit!
Pak ThunderSure, a photo that I found via ITAR-TASS. Have any actually been delivered to the PAF?
Which is exactly how stories, rumours and speculation become established as “facts”.
Rosoboronexport never miss an opportunity to market their products: there have been endless press reports and statements made as a result of the Indo-Defense Expo in Jakarta last week, with even earnings from selling spares over the next few years being made public. Are you suggesting that Rosoboronexport chose to “forget” about the Mi-35s in Pakistan’s case?
You’ll also not find any mention of them whatsoever on the UN register, for either Pakistan or the Russian Federation declarations. Paksitan list imports of F-7PG, A-5 etc. from the PRC so why “hide” Mi-35s? Russia lists their combat helicopter exports to everybody else, so why make a sole exception for Pakistan and omit theirs?
I guess it’s all down to personal judgement: you saw a couple of postings on PakDef about Mi-35s being inducted just the same as I did. The poster of that message stated that the transport aircraft were delivering them from Ukraine, IIRC. :diablo:
You want to believe what you’re reading, that’s the crucial difference.
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Good posting Steve
Yes, some of the posters on Pakdef have very reliable info, the combination of there reports and the Flight listing of MI-35s does lead me to believe its true.
Of course Russia has a very good reasson to keep any exports to Pakistan underwraps. The reason lies to the east and has 1 billion plus people and a huge market for russian arms.
Pak ThunderWe people on this forum not claiming the S-300 was already in Indian service!?
Pak ThunderNEW DELHI, Nov 30: Russia tersely told India on Tuesday that it would no longer transfer any high technology defence system to New Delhi without a pact to protect intellectual property rights (IPR) , and said India’s bid to buy American Patriot anti-missile system would not work on Russian-supplied platforms.
Press Trust of India quoted Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov as saying in Moscow that it was not going to move further in sharing sophisticated military technologies with India without the IPR pact.
“In our military-technical cooperation we have come to a stage when, without signing of the agreement on the protection of Intellectual Property Rights (IPR), we cannot look ahead,” Mr Ivanov said here ahead of his trip to New Delhi to prepare the ground work for President Vladimir Putin’s three-day visit beginning this week.
During his stay in New Delhi, Mr Ivanov will co-chair the fourth session of the Indo-Russian inter-governmental commission on military cooperation along with his Indian counterpart Pranab Mukherjee to finalize defence agenda for talks between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Putin on Dec 3.
On reports about India’s plans to assess the US Patriot ABM system, he said Russia has already demonstrated its S-300 system to Indian experts at several occasions. He expressed doubt whether Patriot missiles could be amalgamated into the integrated air defence system modelled by Russia for India, PTI said.
“To do this we have to get access to the source codes of Patriot missiles, which the US will not give. We also will not give our source codes if India goes ahead with the American system of control,” Mr Ivanov said.
He indicated that the absence of IPR protection agreement has become an ‘obstacle’ in the development of defence cooperation involving the cutting-edge technologies. “It has become something of an obstacle if we think of future, we can fulfil our previous obligations without this, but we cannot move ahead in high technology cooperation,” Mr Ivanov said.
He noted that Russia had submitted the draft of the agreement to India two years ago, but the Indian side had not even given its suggestions or proposals on it. “We will not give away such high technology without signing IPR agreement, for free.
India is a priority and strategic partner of Russia. It was also a strategic partner of Soviet Union, which used to give many things for free, but things have changed. Russia is a different country and there is a need for taking cognizance of this reality,” Mr Ivanov said.
He also expressed Russia’s displeasure over the way New Delhi is treating its strategic partner on the issue of WTO accession and recognition of Russia as a market economy, a step already taken by the European Union, China and the US.
Mr Ivanov said Indo-Russian defence cooperation was moving ahead in accordance with the long-term military technical programme till year 2010. However, like BrahMos cruise missile project, which was not part of this programme, some new projects are in the pipeline for 2005 and in the coming years.
“I cannot share with you at this juncture, what are these projects. At proper time you will come to know,” Mr Ivanov said when asked about these projects. Space could become a major, thrust area of military cooperation, PTI said.
“I would rather say the civilian and military cooperation involving space would become a thrust area of bilateral interaction,” Mr Ivanov told correspondents from India in Moscow. He said Moscow was not afraid of competition in the Indian arms bazaar from the growing number of new players, including the United States.
Pak ThunderSo having SOME info is the same as having aircrafts in inventory? 😀
PAF/PAA have not exactly been shy about showing off their assets, given the number of reports they allowed AFM and other aviation mags to publish – with Photos.
Do we have photos or any such report on the Mi-35s? If not, what does that tell you?
GA
On teh contrary, like every other armed force, PAA/PAF will only show of what it wants to show off! If it wants to keep things under wraps it will, just like IAF, USAF, RAF or anyone else.
PAF was using PGMs since the early 80s, yet this was not clariefied till 1988 when a pic was relaased with an F-16 being armed with paveway.
Reports that we had a MI-25 for evaluation where not confirmed till very recently when a pic was released.
There was also a PR pic posted by the manufactuer showing a CSAR fitted MI-17 with PAF markings
PAF never showed this off
I have not seen a single pic of a PAF CN-235 but pretty sure we have them
Journalists and AFM are shown what we want them to see
I heard rumours of a MI-35 deal and now saw the reports in flight, so I am pretty sure this deal went through
Pak ThunderSorry missed out the Fantans
A-5 Fantan/FT-6 = 41/19
L = “L-100-20”
apologies, my typing error, they did type it
Yes, the FI listing is not 100% accurate, but its probaly the best out there magazine wise, and why on earth would FI just throw in news about MI-35s if it did not have at least SOME info on them!
Pak ThunderYou never said that it was from the FI Directory, which is a different thing altogether.
Once Steve pointed it out to me, I acknowledged that I did not look in that section which is in the hardcopy and not online.
In general, when people post claims based on published sources, they must give details to verify. I myself have scanned or linked to exact items when I make claims.
BTW, I note that you have not commented on Steve’s accurate analyses of FI’s bogus claims about many countries’ inventories.
Tomorrow if FI fails to list a particular system that you have personally seen at Chaklala, will you believe that your eyes deceived you? Heck even AFM made a mistake about F-16s being allegedly downed in Kargil. Did you beleive that when they first published it – “Hey’ it’s AFM, so it must be true”? Did you not tag along with Tom Cooper when he pointed out AFM’s mistake?
You have historically shown a tendency to interpret sources based on your fantasies but shirk away when they say things that you don’t like.
GA
You dont even have the hard copy of the FI listing do you? Yest you claimed you did? If I asked you for some figures from it you could probably not list them could you? That or you may have “mislayed” your copy!?
“histocrically”!? Now you know my “history”!? Please enlighten me?
“Not looked in that section”!? The directory makes up 70% of the magazine, you missed out the entire directory?
Pak ThunderThere’s no harm in cross verifying visibly dubious figures with others. By doing the latter, being an enthusiast, you should already have had a pretty accurate idea of the orbat. Strangely, that’s not the case when it comes to the Pak Armed forces.
You already know that their list for the French Army is wrong and no French is going to come forth and say “Hey it’s FI! It can’t be wrong!”. Besides, who’s to say that FI is the world’s best, can’t go wrong etc etc? There are a number of pretty good publications from AFM, FI to WAPJ and all have made mistakes from time to time. It never depends on the publication, rather, the author.
Tracking S/Ns, scramble.nl is your best bet.
Harry your right, it is more accurate cross referencing, I have not done this with Scramble, however, Flight (barringa few mistakes) tends to be pretty accurate, I heard rumours about PAF MI-35s, and when I saw the flight article I am now pretty confident we have a CSAR fleet equipped with them and with MI-17s, incidentally anyone got a pic of a PAF MI-17 “NOT ARMY”!?
Pak ThunderFlight Inernational , World Air Forces 2004, Pakistan
F-16A/B = 22/10
JF-17 = 150 on order
F-7P/FT-7 = 97/13
F7PG/FT-7PG = 46/9 , 25 more requested
Mirage IIIEL/EP/BE/BL = 9/15/6/1
Mirage IIIRP/DP = 13/5
Mirage III0/0D = 38/5 , 14 Stored
Mirage 5F/PA/DPA = 33/56/2
FT-5 = 39 Stored
Transport
707-320 = 3
737 – 300 = 1
C-130 B/E/L = 5/4/1 , 7 on order
CN=235 = 2 , 2 on order
F-27 200 = 2
Falcon 20E/F = 1/2
Y-12(II) = 2
Baron/King Air = 1/1
PA-34 Seneca II = 1
Citation V = 1
Cessna 172 = 8
AN-26 = 1
Twin Bonanza = 2
SF-25C = 3
Combat Helicopter
SA316/SA319 = 15
MI-35 = 1-5
MI-17 = 4 on order
Training Aircraft
T-37 Tweet = 15 stored
MFI-17B = 300 on order
Super Mushashak = 30, 16 on order
K-8 = 12
Pak ThunderCivilised perhaps could be taken to mean how u could explain the delivery or thereabouts, or years, or any reference apart from the Flight International orbat as stated instead of asking us to write to headquarters for more info.
Who knows the above adress might actually work..
I guess now i can infer that you have no information to cross reference and we can procede along with the rest of the wishlist thread…
Continue please…
Muns
Golden Arrow accused me of exactly the same thing and implied I was lying about teh Flight Article until Steve Touchdown confirmed it,we then went very quiet, I suggest you go out and buy the 16-22nd Nov issue of its still available, if not and you dont have access to it, thats really not a concern of mine. I have it here in front of me and will be happy to supply you with any information from it. I could scan and past it here, but dont think the mods would like that.
regards
Pak ThunderAh but you forget anylist be it false that even provides a modicum of increasing operational levels even though its ~ 5 Mi-35’s must be taken a gospel truth. Its rare to see anything be operationally inducted nowadays….
For further information please write to ISPR headquarters.
If you don’t get through there try Musharraf himself!Musharraf!
What u don’t know his address?
islamabad or thereabouts
pakistan
Can we try and be civilised? I was trying to help in the light of a lack of information, if you feel the need to mock my nation or its leaders, can you do it elswhere?
Regards
Pak ThunderSo you’ll just take anything mentioned in FI, be it downright false figures such as 11 Atlantiques, at face value? You yourself should be a better source for your own country’s orbat. Strange that it is’nt the case with any one related. Perhaps Arthur or Hans Van Herk can provide a better list.
Harry
If I knew my countries orbat better then the worlds most prestigous aviation magazine (with access to aviation companies, governments, Air Forces etc) then I would not be sitting here in a dull marketing job! 😀
Lets agree to disagree on this, just like I cannot give you the S/Ns for PAFs Y-12s, or its Cessna 172s or its Alouttes, I cant give you the SNs for its MI-35s, however, if Flight list it, I will go with them.
Incidentally, re the Atalnatiques, PN got many Ex French and Dutch examples in addition to its orginal order, some were activated others were used for spares so I think it may be hard proving how many Atlantiques are in the ON fleet and the Flight number may actually be right
Pak ThunderI thought we established on the first page, that numbers are dubious at best from Flight International. Are there any other sources where PAF has taken delivery of Hinds? Can’t find any…
And indcidentally…uve posted the news before about the SAAB awacs arriving on the first page as well…
Now back to wishlists for f-16’s block 60’s, AMRAAMS, and Erieye etc..
I dont know how on earth we “established” Flight International is innacurate, but if you can find me a list of air force inventories that is more accurate in another magazine I will be happy to refer to it.Until then, and no offence, I will stick with FI despite it having a few mistakes, as a relaible source
Pak ThunderTalking of Chaklala, this is a sight that will be familiar to those users who land at Islamabad International
😀
Pak ThunderI hope you’re not referring to the that rather ridiculously inaccurate Air power list, earlier posted. (For example, the PN only took 5 ex-Aeronavale Atlantique-1s, not 10) As steve already mentioned, there’s no proof that any Mi-35 was delivered to Pakistan, or even requested? If there is, please provide the S/Ns or atleast some report of delivery.
Yeah, predictably you may have trouble beleiving it, but I will stick with Flight International, which (of most aviation media tends to be the most relaible), I suggest you write in and take it up with them. For the S/Ns please write to the following address, although I doubt it will get you very far….
Deputy Director ISPR
Air Headquarters
Chaklala
Pakistan
regards
Sign In
